Minutes: MathML Full meeting, 17 August, 2023

Users

ljmahersoiffer

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### Attendees:

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* David Carlisle

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* Bert Bos

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* Dennis Müller

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* Neil Soiffer

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* David Farmer

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  * Bruce Miller

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* Deyan Ginev

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* Murray Sargent

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#### Regrets

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* Louis Maher

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* Bert Bos

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* David Carlisle

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* Sam Dooley

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* David Farmer

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* Patrick Ion

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* Brian Kardell

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* Louis Maher

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* Bruce Miller

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* Dennis Müller

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* Steve Noble

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* Murray Sargent

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* Neil Soiffer

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* Johannes Stegmüller

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* Cary Supalo

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* Frédéric Wang

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* Stephen Watt

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* Deyan Ginev

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* Moritz Schubotz

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* Paul Libbrecht

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## Agenda

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### 1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

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NS: Charter going through with no more vote/changes needed.

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NS: we will be getting an extension

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### 2. Review of
[charter](https://www.w3.org/Math/Documents/Charter2023.html) changes
with the aim to approve them if acceptable.

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done

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### 3. Continued discussion of Paul's work item to expand the list of
[core concepts](https://polx.github.io/mathml-docs/intent-core-concepts/)
with the hope of using those examples to develop criteria for what
should be in core and what shouldn't be (e.g., "equals", "sin", ...).

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<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.4.1-rc#cp-md-0-attendees->
Attendees:

   -

   David Carlisle
   -

   Bert Bos
   -

   Dennis Müller
   -

   Neil Soiffer
   -

   David Farmer
   -

   Bruce Miller
   -

   Deyan Ginev
   -

   Murray Sargent

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.4.1-rc#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - Louis Maher

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.4.1-rc#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.4.1-rc#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

NS: Charter going through with no more vote/changes needed. NS: we will be
getting an extension
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.4.1-rc#cp-md-0-2-review-of-a-href-https-www-w3-org-math-documents-charter2023-html-charter-a-changes-with-the-aim-to-approve-them-if-acceptable->2.
Review of charter <https://www.w3.org/Math/Documents/Charter2023.html>
changes with the aim to approve them if acceptable.

done
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.4.1-rc#cp-md-0-3-continued-discussion-of-paul-39-s-work-item-to-expand-the-list-of-a-href-https-polx-github-io-mathml-docs-intent-core-concepts-core-concepts-a-with-the-hope-of-using-those-examples-to-develop-criteria-for-what-should-be-in-core-and-what-shouldn-39-t-be-e-g-quot-equals-quot-quot-sin-quot->3.
Continued discussion of Paul's work item to expand the list of core concepts
<https://polx.github.io/mathml-docs/intent-core-concepts/> with the hope of
using those examples to develop criteria for what should be in core and
what shouldn't be (e.g., "equals", "sin", ...).

NS: do we need things with standard names that everyone agrees on DC: I
think we do as the description of intent is mostly as an expression
language independent of presentation MathML

MS: these would mainly be needed if intent

DC: In chapter 5, we don't hardly mention presentation MathML. If we
restrict it to the leaves, why do we need intent?

NS: Where does it stop? Do we have to name every Unicode char?

DC: Core only has a few.

MS: We don't want to encourage over verbose MathML with intent on all token
elements.

DC: It's a separate issue. We should say what it would if we did put it
one. We are not saying you have to put it on.

BM: we are conflating defaults with core.

NS: if we default something, don't we have to name it and hence it would be
in core

BM: if we had a description of a default, then we need to name it, but it
doesn't mean it needs named in core.

DG: a default clear needs to be targeted at a value. How do we know to use
"plus" vs "addition"? If there is no list, how do people know?

NS: I agree if it is a default list, it needs to be named somewhere,
probably in a core list. But maybe for pedantic reasons, a separate list.

...

NS: I see two criteria:

   1. Is it ambiguous and common -> then in core
   2. Is it a default

DC: the fact that vertical bar is ambiguous, it has nothing to do with
being arity.

BM: I mostly agree.

DG: if a notation is ambiguous, then we add all the common meanings.

DC: the notation does not matter, it's the concept. So "times" is useful
because it is a concept. It can be put on various symbols.

MS: "/" might be "over" or "divided by", but both are the same concept.

DC: right now, the entries do not matter as much as what columns there are.
Also, naming conventions.

DG: added to MS's comment -- separator used in time (1/4/23).

NS: In the list, we should add some description about the naming convention.

  DC: we need to agree on what we say in the spec

Action: NS to create an  issue with spec text and people will create their
version so that next week we can agree on what determines what goes core.