Minutes: MathML Full meeting 14 April, 2020

 Attendees:

   - Sam Dooley
   - David Farmer
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Murray Sargent
   - Neil Soiffer
   - Bert Bos
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Steve Noble
   - Cary Supalo
   - Louis Maher
   - Moritz Schubotz
   - Stephen Watt

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=4.14.0-06#cp-md-0-regrets->
Regrets:

   - David Carlisle
   - Bruce Miller

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=4.14.0-06#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates>1.
Announcements/Updates

NS: The TPAC meeting will be a hybrid meeting. The W3C would like to have
people physically come to the meeting.

NS: Didn't do action from last week -- will work on ways "AT" can determine
what are input and what are output parameters. The sighted individuals use
background color to determine this difference.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=4.14.0-06#cp-md-0-2-go-over-progress-on-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-issues-a->2.
Go over progress on issues <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues>

PL: made a first draft for the media-types declarations:
https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/mathml-media-types/
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=4.14.0-06#cp-md-0-a-progress-on-various-chapters-appendices>a)
progress on various chapters/appendices

Sam will discuss what he did when talking about content later in the agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=4.14.0-06#cp-md-0-b-moving-clipboard-examples-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-pull-315-strong-clipboard-examples-strong-a->b)
moving clipboard examples (*clipboard examples*
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/pull/315>

PL: His work was extracted from MathML 3, Appendix B.

NS: What is the process to change media types?

BB: discussed people (Philippe) who should be consulted before try to make
an official rec for media types.

NS: Changing the media type is independent of the MathML specification.

PL: showed a list of media types for MathML.

PL: Illustrative things should be kept in the specification and not be put
in an informative note.

PL: showed clipboard examples from chapter 6.

NS: agrees with DC: if we are intending to pull media types out of the
MathML specification, then why are we talking about it?

NS: wants to look at this again to see if it is relevant.

NS: some review of chapter six is needed.

DG: For the HTML-native use cases, being able to copy fragments with
multiple math elements would be a significant increase in usability. I
think we should encourage it. These are common with e.g. inline formulas in
sentences or HTML tables with multiple math cells.

NS: How does SVG handle copying tables with graphics?

PL: Thought the MathML would be eliminated for security reasons. Tries it.
This is not the case.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=4.14.0-06#cp-md-0-c-appendix-f-for-content-elements-section-4-6-move-pragmatic-to-strict>c)
appendix f for content elements ([**Section 4.6 Move Pragmatic-to-Strict

Transformation to an appendix*](https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/307
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/307>) [*Collect content operator
element syntax tables*](https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/318
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/318>), and [*Collect content operator
element syntax tables**](https://github.com/w3c/mathml/pull/319))

SD: Presented sample tables. There is a lot of empty space in the table.

DG: Recalled that DC was referring to the transformation to Strict, and
whether it is information was normative or informative. DC stated it is,
and should remain normative.

NS: Each appendix should say if it is informative or normative. If an
appendix has both kinds of information, then the various sections of the
appendix should be labeled informative or normative.

PL: Does think that large amounts of white space can be a problem. He
discussed putting the last four columns into one column.

SD: said that he would investigate ways of shrinking the tables because
people were interested in that.

SD: In the pull request, there are descriptions without tables. There is a
paragraph summarizing each item instead of having a table.

NS: SD might consider folding to help shrink tables.

NS: We will not make a formal commitment to do this until DC can come back
next week.

DG: likes the compact form using descriptive paragraphs instead of tables.

MOS: Pragmatic MathML is not used often and perhaps it should be deprecated.

NS: Intent works with presentation MathML. We are not trying to replace
pragmatic MathML with intent.

NS: Our charter says we are not changing content MathML in MathML 4. Maybe
we will revisit content MathML in version five.

MOS: People may wonder why there are so many ways to write Math
electronically. We should clarify this.

DG: We cannot just say that intent is the new pragmatic content MathML.
There is a lot more work that needs to be invested, also to address the
underlying problems with Content MathML adoption.

SD: says that Pearson has widely used content MathML for automatic grading,
to the tune of millions of expressions. Content MathML has not been widely
adopted on the web.

SD: wants to refactor Content MathML, but agrees today isn't the time for
deprecations.

PL: This is a long topic and other people should be at the table for this
discussion.

SN: Pearson is interested in continuity and availability of Content MathML.

DG: sympy has a Content export which still points to Content MathML 2. It
is very specifically here:
https://github.com/sympy/sympy/blob/89722e3a0d3c0b45145a42c19db51851396f093c/sympy/printing/mathml.py#L127-L131
DG: this is the kind of evidence one could examine to decide if mainstream
symbolic systems are - or aren't - actively keeping up with newer spec
changes to MathML.

NS: we should have more CAS representatives in the group meetings when we
decide to seriously re-examine this

DG: indeed!
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=4.14.0-06#cp-md-0-3-continue-reviewing-the-a-href-https-w3c-github-io-mathml-mathml-4-doc-a->3.
Continue reviewing the MathML 4 doc <https://w3c.github.io/mathml/>

a) *Potential presentation MathML items to deprecate in MathML 4*
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/304>

NS: This is about presentation MathML items that we should think about
deprecating in MathML 4 based on not being used. The "not being used" part
is based on my experience and needs to be verified.

NS: Here is a list of potential items to deprecated based on usage:

   - mspace@linebreak -- was added for compatibility with MathML when
   MathML 3's linebreaking was added. It is a wart, and I do not think it is
   used (not that MathML 3's linebreaking was used outside of DSI's tools and
   the polyfill I wrote).
   - malignmark/maligngroup -- these were added to allow sub-alignment in a
   table. They are extremely hard to implement, and few systems have done so.
   - maction -- this really should be done with JavaScript. At the very
   least, we should pull some of the example actiontype values such as
   statusline , tooltip , and input .
   - Menclose -- remove radical notation.

PL: Wants to know what the status of 'mfence" is currently.

We discussed the height of the brackets for an "mrow".

NS: suggests not using mfence.

NS: says do not deprecate mfence in spec four. It is still used.

NS: Deprecate things that are not used.

MUS: used maligngroup in word.

DG: used maction in 2008 and prefers JavaScript.

NS: Does not like mfence but the charter says the spec should support
commonly used constructs.

NS: Way past the top of the hour (no DC to remind us it is dinner time :-)
-- continue next week.

<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Virus-free.
www.avg.com
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>