From: Paul Topping <pault@dessci.com>

Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 18:18:18 +0000

To: Moritz Schubotz <schubotz@tu-berlin.de>, Daniel Kinzler <daniel@brightbyte.de>, "www-math@w3.org" <www-math@w3.org>, "Peter Krautzberger" <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>

CC: Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org>, wikidata-tech <wikidata-tech@lists.wikimedia.org>

Message-ID: <B6C5B1ABA88AF446821B281774E6DB71B717B5AE@FERMAT.corp.dessci>

Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 18:18:18 +0000

To: Moritz Schubotz <schubotz@tu-berlin.de>, Daniel Kinzler <daniel@brightbyte.de>, "www-math@w3.org" <www-math@w3.org>, "Peter Krautzberger" <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>

CC: Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org>, wikidata-tech <wikidata-tech@lists.wikimedia.org>

Message-ID: <B6C5B1ABA88AF446821B281774E6DB71B717B5AE@FERMAT.corp.dessci>

Yes, let's discuss. I wrote a response to Peter's post here: http://bit.ly/1ZLfCF8. Probably some on this list are aware of it but perhaps not all. I believe it is important to separate out the different aspects of MathML as a standard. Peter scoped his post by saying that it had failed as a WEB standard right in the title. However, many will ignore that key word and see it as saying that MathML is a total failure which is clearly not the case. On Hacker News, they even discussed how TeX was a better language than MathML to type math. Peter's title is a provocative one and subject to much misinterpretation. This is one of the main reasons I wrote my response. I actually agree with a lot of Peter's observations but not their tone and the fact that they are presented in a manner that invites misinterpretation by the many that do not really understand MathML. Paul Topping Design Science, Inc. "How Science Communicates" Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, Equation Editor http://www.dessci.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Moritz Schubotz [mailto:schubotz@tu-berlin.de] > Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2016 11:01 AM > To: Daniel Kinzler <daniel@brightbyte.de>; www-math@w3.org; Peter > Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org> > Cc: Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org>; Schubotz, > Moritz <schubotz@tu-berlin.de>; wikidata-tech <wikidata- > tech@lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: MathML is dead, long live MathML > > Hi Daniel, > > Ok. Let's discuss! > > Most interesting for me is Peters statements > > Content MathML is just not relevant. > Since I'm currently investigating how content MathML is used, and > whats needs to be done to get mathematical content from one system to > another. > Currently, I have the impression that the latter question is > completely solved in theory, but completely unsolved in practise. > > Disclaimer: While I really appreciate drinking beer with Peter, we > have slightly different approaches for de facto standards to share > mathematics in information systems. > > Best > Moritz > > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Daniel Kinzler <daniel@brightbyte.de> wrote: > > Peter Krautzberger, maintainer of MathJax, apparently thinks that MathML > has > > failed as a web standard (even though it succeeded as an XML standard), > and > > should be removed from HTML5. Here's the link: > > > > https://www.peterkrautzberger.org/0186/ > > > > It's quite a rant. Here's a quick TL;DR: > > > >> It doesn’t matter whether or not MathML is a good XML language. > Personally, I > >> think it’s quite alright. It’s also clearly a success in the XML publishing > >> world, serving an important role in standards such as JATS and BITS. > >> > >> The problem is: MathML has failed on the web. > > > >> Not a single browser vendor has stated an intent to work on the code, not > a > >> single browser developer has been seen on the MathWG. After 18 years, > not a > >> single browser vendor is willing to dedicate even a small percentage of a > >> developer to MathML. > > > >> Math layout can and should be done in CSS and SVG. Let’s improve them > >> incrementally to make it simpler. > >> > >> It’s possible to generate HTML+CSS or SVG that renders any MathML > content – > >> on the server, mind you, no client-side JS required (but of course > possible). > > > >> Since layout is practically solved (or at least achievable), we really need > >> to solve the semantics. Presentation MathML is not sufficient, Content > MathML > >> is just not relevant. > >> > >> We need to look where the web handles semantics today – that’s ARIA > and HTML > >> but also microdata, rdfa etc. > > > > I think both, the rendering as well as the semantics, are well worth thinking > > about. Perhaps Wikimedia should reach out to Peter Krautzberger, and > discuss > > some ideas of how math (and physics, and chemistry) content should be > handled by > > Wikipedia, Wikidata, and friends. This seems like a cross roads, and we > should > > have a hand in where things are going from here. > > > > -- daniel (not a MathML expert all all) > > > > > > -- > Moritz Schubotz > TU Berlin, Fakultät IV > DIMA - Sekr. EN7 > Raum EN742 > Einsteinufer 17 > D-10587 Berlin > Germany > > Tel.: +49 30 314 22784 > Mobil.: +49 1578 047 1397 > Fax: +49 30 314 21601 > E-Mail: schubotz@tu-berlin.de > Skype: Schubi87 > ICQ: 200302764 > Msn: Moritz@Schubotz.deReceived on Thursday, 7 April 2016 18:18:49 UTC

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