- From: Fuqiao Xue <xfq@w3.org>
- Date: Fri, 16 May 2025 10:39:25 +0800
- To: www-international@w3.org
https://www.w3.org/2025/05/15-i18n-minutes.html
text version:
– DRAFT –
Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
15 May 2025
[2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.
[2] https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/b7edae68-f52c-4aab-a1a6-3c37459e0786/20250515T150000/
[3] https://www.w3.org/2025/05/15-i18n-irc
Attendees
Present
Addison, Atsushi, Fuqiao, JcK, Richard, Zainab
Regrets
-
Chair
Addison Phillips
Scribe
xfq
Contents
1. [4]Agenda Review
2. [5]Action Items
3. [6]Info Share
4. [7]Review RADAR
5. [8]Pending Issue Review
6. [9]TPAC Planning
7. [10]Discuss <cite>Limiting Access to Local Fonts</cite>
proposal
8. [11]WebNN
9. [12]ARIA key-shortcuts
10. [13]Specdev "isomorphic string" PR
11. [14]Font filtering & generic fonts
12. [15]AOB?
13. [16]Summary of action items
Meeting minutes
Agenda Review
Action Items
<addison> [17]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues
[17] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues
<addison> #169
<gb> [18]Action 169 reply to html 10843 and css 9832 (on
aphillips) due 2025-05-08
[18] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/169
<addison> #168
<gb> [19]Action 168 add instructions on dark mode to
i18n-editors (on xfq) due 2025-05-01
[19] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/168
<addison> #165
<gb> [20]Action 165 add a conformance section to suppress the
respec warning to specdev (on aphillips) due 2025-04-10
[20] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/165
<addison> #162
<gb> [21]Action 162 poll I18N/CSS for new day/time (on
aphillips) due 2025-03-25
[21] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/162
<addison> #157
<gb> [22]Action 157 write glossary proposal identifying options
and next steps for those options (on aphillips) due 2025-02-20
[22] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/157
<addison> #136
<gb> [23]Issue 136 follow up on XML errata (by aphillips)
[task]
[23] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/136
addison: xml-editor list has been revived
… now you can send errata about the xml spec
<addison> #135
<gb> [24]Action 135 follow up on XR issue 1393 about locale in
session (on aphillips) due 2024-10-17
[24] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/135
<addison> #127
<gb> [25]Action 127 make a list of shared topics of interest
between TG2 and W3C-I18N (on aphillips) due 2024-09-30
[25] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/127
<addison> #33
<gb> [26]Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG
for further review (on aphillips)
[26] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33
<addison> #7
<gb> [27]Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting
comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin,
r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023
[27] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7
<addison> #4
<gb> [28]Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the
character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on aphillips)
due 27 Jul 2023
[28] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4
Info Share
Zainab: my name is Zainab Rizvi
… I work at Google on Chrome
… I work on a team that looks at anti-tracking
… anti-fingerprinting measures, detection, and possible
interventions
… a lot of the interventions we think about don't necessarily
think about i18n because the goal is to have uniformity
r12a: Unicode 17 beta will start on 20th
… I've already updated Uniview
… but haven't released it yet
<r12a> [29]https://r12a.github.io/scripts/
index.html#scriptnotes
[29] https://r12a.github.io/scripts/index.html#scriptnotes
r12a: because there might be last minute changes to the data
… I've been going through my orthographic notes
… and updating them significantly
Review RADAR
<addison> [30]https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1
[30] https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1
addison: we have no new incoming requests this week
… we got an early review request for DID
Pending Issue Review
<addison> [31]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/
issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending
[31] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is:issue+is:open+label:pending
TPAC Planning
ACTION: addison: reserve two days worth of meetings at tpac
<gb> Created [32]action #170
[32] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/170
Discuss <cite>Limiting Access to Local Fonts</cite> proposal
addison: does anybody have any specific preferences for tpac?
<addison> [33]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/
member-i18n-core/2025May/0000.html
[33] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2025May/0000.html
<addison> [34]explainers-by-googlers/
limiting-local-fonts-access
[34] https://github.com/explainers-by-googlers/limiting-local-fonts-access
Zainab: Limiting Access to Local Fonts is an early proposal by
our team
… we're looking for specific feedback from this group before we
incubate it further
… the motivation is to combat font-based fingerprinting
<addison> (our comment: [35]https://github.com/
explainers-by-googlers/limiting-local-fonts-access/issues/3)
[35] https://github.com/explainers-by-googlers/limiting-local-fonts-access/issues/3)
<gb> [36]Issue 3 W3C I18N WG comments (by aphillips)
[36] https://github.com/explainers-by-googlers/limiting-local-fonts-access/issues/3
Zainab: specifically looking at canvas measure text but as we
all know that's not the only way
… there's also like CSS font-family that's used to uniquely
identify users across the web
… very simply the proposal is to have a list-based approach
… specifically for Windows and Mac
… and then use those lists as source of truth when determining
whether a font is considered user installed
… towards Safari already does
… the reason why we're just considering Mac and Windows right
now is because Linux distributions are varied and we don't
think a list-based approach will be sustainable
… feedback is welcome
… the first thing I wanted to talk about are use cases that
cannot be covered by web fonts or the local fonts access API
r12a: I feel very poorly prepared and unfortunately I've
written about these things in so many different places and so
many different threads that I'm not sure I could immediately
find
… the list of things I want to mention
… but let me start with a couple of things
… first, I no longer use Safari because of my work with scripts
from around. the world Safari is no use to me anymore
… I hope that Chrome does not go the same way
… the system fonts are often way out of date
… even Google Noto fonts
… there are things like the Urdu font
… which has had significant changes recently to support Urdu
and Kashmiri and so on
… and Mac prevents you using the latest version of the font
even if you download it
… it's a pain in the neck
… I'm not sure I've covered all of them, I need to find that
list that I did before but those are issues around the idea
that system fonts are not enough
… the idea of using web fonts is not all the time great because
Chinese fonts is too big
… some page contains a lot of languages
… needs lots of bandwidth by having to have every font
downloaded
[37]w3c/csswg-drafts#4055 has some example issues
[37] https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4055
<gb> [38]Issue 4055 [css-fonts] incorporate mitigations for
font based fingerprinting (by pes10k) [css-fonts-4]
[i18n-tracker] [Needs Design / Proposal] [privacy-tracker]
[38] https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4055
r12a: people who are researching stuff like Egyptian
hieroglyphs and stuff like that they want to be able to switch
between fonts to understand whether they support things
correctly and so on
… without any penalties or having to create web fonts before
being able to do anything
… and they're doing that locally on their own system
… from my point of view they should be immune
addison: let's pause here for a second
… this has been a long discussion in a lot of places
Zainab: I have a few different thoughts
… thank you for the feedback, r12a
… extremely useful
… I'm a native Urdu speaker, I can read Kashmiri and I also
find Safari unusable, so I definitely relate in that front
… you're right that we would be disadvantaging folks
… I've been thinking of a few ways we could mitigate some of
these concerns
… I have a few very early ideas
… the localhost one is very obvious
… we should not have interventions in place at localhost
… I think that's agreed upon
… there's not thread model for privacy
… the other thing is opt-in mode of some sort and maybe
starting with Chrome's incognito mode
… which has less users than regular browsingt
… also somewhere we're trying out like new privacy features,
when a user has opted into a higer privacy mode
… and that can be perceived as an active choice being made by
users
… that's one option
… the other option would be to have an explicit toggle that
would apply to the entire browsing sessions
… but they would need to opt into it
… and then we can talk about how this would work for enterprise
users
r12a: so if you don't do that , you can continue as we
currently go on at the moment right?
… then you've got the question of educating people to say if
you do want to fly under the radar then use this mode
… that sounds like an interesting way
… the "more than x fonts" thing I'd break that barrier pretty
quickly
… I wrote one of the Unicode tehnical notes on Indic scripts
and how they work, I'm using example for all of those scripts,
so I'm probably going to hit 10 or more
… in a single article of that kind
Zainab: a quick response
… when you're talking about building web pages that use like
more than whatever the limit might be would you be open to then
requesting permission through the local font access API
explicitly
… then you can do as many as you want, there is no limit
… it's an existing API
ACTION: zainab: revise local-font-access to exclude localhost
and talk more about opt-in model
<gb> Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe zainab is
not a valid user for w3c/i18n-actions?
Zainab: it's saved in their preferences
r12a: yes I think that's what I had suggested previously
ACTION: addison: remind zainab: revise local-font-access to
exclude localhost and talk more about opt-in model
<gb> Created [39]action #171
[39] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/171
Zainab: I have one question
… I don't know if folks are familiar with the Windows features
on demand
… which are the extrea things that you can install
… based on your region
… we were exploring to have sublists based on different
countries and locals
… but we don't want to be in the business of maintaining 100
different lists
… but if it's a useful thing we're open to it
r12a: it's also a problem of determing which is the right list
for you
<Bert> gb, help alias?
<gb> Bert, I am a bot to look up and create GitHub issues and
<gb> … action items. I am an instance of GHURLBot 0.5.
<gb> … Try gb, help commands or
<gb> … see [40]https://w3c.github.io/GHURLBot/manual.html
[40] https://w3c.github.io/GHURLBot/manual.html
addison: it's tricky
… the world is a big place
WebNN
[41]https://github.com/webmachinelearning/webnn/pull/841/files
[41] https://github.com/webmachinelearning/webnn/pull/841/files
<gb> [42]MERGED Pull Request 841 Add notes regarding label
usage, provided by i18n review (by inexorabletash)
[42] https://github.com/webmachinelearning/webnn/pull/841
<addison> [43]w3c/i18n-activity#1999
[43] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1999
<gb> [44]Issue 1999 String metadata and localization for
operator labels (by xfq) [close?] [needs-resolution] [s:webnn]
[t:loc_localization] [wg:webmachinelearning]
[44] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1999
[xfq introduces the issue and PR]
addison: I think this is a classical tension
… particularly with develop facing stuff
… the statement that the string isn't intended to be natural
language
… I think the notes that they inserted look good
… maybe the warning about Trojan Source is a good one but
that's sort of a general purpose warning and maybe it doesn't
need to be right there
… I imagine they have other strings besides this which is
Unicode data
… if this is the only one then here is fine
xfq: sounds good to me
ARIA key-shortcuts
<addison> [45]w3c/aria#2141
[45] https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2141
<gb> [46]Issue 2141 `aria-keyshortcuts` needs attention? (by
aphillips) [i18n-tracker]
[46] https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2141
<addison> [47]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/
public-i18n-core/2025AprJun/0035.html
[47] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2025AprJun/0035.html
addison: aria-keyshortcuts
… we have a longstanding issue
… daniel invited us to their next call
… y'all are invited to come too
Specdev "isomorphic string" PR
<addison> [48]https://
deploy-preview-158--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#char-string-by
te-oriented
[48] https://deploy-preview-158--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#char-string-byte-oriented
addison: a couple of weeks ago I showed you the early version
of this section's rewrite
… I took your feedback
… and made some changes
… hopefully better illustrating how bytestrings work
<addison> [49]w3c/bp-i18n-specdev#158
[49] https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/158
<gb> [50]Pull Request 158 Address isomorphic string and
ByteString guidance (by aphillips)
[50] https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/158
addison: comments welcome
… particularly interested in whether we got the mustard
guidelines right
Font filtering & generic fonts
r12a: we now have generic(nastaliq) in CSS
… I'm not sure whether the font filtering stuff that we were
just talking about has an impact here
… one of the things you'd be able to do with generic fonts is
you could author a document without calling for a specific font
at all
Zainab: I'll have to look into the specific lists for these
different system fonts
r12a: in Safari's case you would fall back to the system
nastaliq font
… but as a user you should be able to prioritize the order in
which the fonts get chosen
AOB?
Summary of action items
1. [51]addison: reserve two days worth of meetings at tpac
2. [52]zainab: revise local-font-access to exclude localhost
and talk more about opt-in model
3. [53]addison: remind zainab: revise local-font-access to
exclude localhost and talk more about opt-in model
Received on Friday, 16 May 2025 02:39:42 UTC