- From: Fuqiao Xue <xfq@w3.org>
- Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 08:54:12 +0800
- To: www-international@w3.org
https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-i18n-minutes.html
text version:
[1]W3C
[1] https://www.w3.org/
– DRAFT –
Internationalization (I18N) Working Group Teleconference
28 September 2023
[2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.
[2]
https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/c5b143d1-0a5b-4adb-8d60-0f5f9bfe5a41/20230928T150000/
[3] https://www.w3.org/2023/09/28-i18n-irc
Attendees
Present
Addison, Atsushi, David, JcK, Richard, xfq
Regrets
-
Chair
Addison Phillips
Scribe
addison, xfq
Contents
1. [4]Agenda Review
2. [5]Info Share
3. [6]RADAR Review
4. [7]I18N ⇔ CSS
5. [8]Internationalization Review for VCDM 2.0
6. [9]Definition of 'string' revisited
7. [10]Adapt#240 and Unicode SAH
8. [11]AOB?
9. [12]Summary of action items
Meeting minutes
<gb> [13]Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with
existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
[13] https://github.com/w3c/Adapt/issues/240
Agenda Review
<gb> [14]Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with
existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
[14] https://github.com/w3c/Adapt/issues/240
<gb> Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #47, #46, #45, #44,
#43, #42, #41, #39, #35, #33, #32, #18, #16, #13, #12, #11,
#10, #9, #8, #7, #5, #4
<addison> #47
<gb> [15]Action 47 make the CSSWG aware of Warichu (on frivoal)
due 2023-10-04
[15] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/47
<addison> #46
<gb> [16]Action 46 read the string-meta explainer and consider
the new approach addison proposes (on xfq, r12a) due 2023-09-28
[16] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/46
<addison> #45
<gb> [17]Action 45 connect unicode sah to the adapt 240 thread
(on aphillips) due 2023-09-28
[17] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/45
<addison> close #45
<gb> Closed [18]action #45
[18] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/45
<addison> #44
<gb> [19]Action 44 follow up on the bidi thread of rdf-star (on
r12a) due 2023-09-19
[19] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/44
<addison> #43
<gb> [20]Action 43 pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis
for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due
2023-09-18
[20] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/43
<addison> #42
<gb> [21]Action 42 work on tc39 proposal (meet with addison and
eemeli to start) (on xfq) due 2023-09-18
[21] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/42
<addison> #41
<gb> [22]Action 41 propose new specdev text on strings for xml
(on aphillips) due 2023-09-07
[22] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/41
<addison> #39
<gb> [23]Action 39 develop best practice guidelines for
name-like fields (on aphillips) due 2023-08-31
[23] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/39
<addison> #35
<gb> [24]Action 35 make the edits of CSS #5478 (on fantasai)
due 2023-08-30
[24] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/35
<addison> #33
<gb> [25]Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG
for further review (on aphillips)
[25] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33
o/
<r12a> o/+
addison: I've now reviewed all of the needs resolution issues
marked closed
… and the only ones still open are the ones that I'm bringing
back to the WG for review
… I have an agenda item today for us to look at that
<addison> #32
<gb> [26]Action 32 Approve the character markup PR (on
fantasai) due 2023-08-17
[26] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/32
<addison> #18
<gb> [27]Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about
counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal,
fantasai)
[27] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18
<addison> #16
<gb> [28]Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for
i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips)
[28] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/16
addison: we still have a significant number of tracker marked
close issues
<addison> #13
<gb> [29]Action 13 Make sure generics are comfortable to read
in the content language (on frivoal)
[29] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/13
addison: and I'm working through those
addison: this one relates to the addition of additional
generics at TPAC
… we discussed with them that they're going to add additional
generic mechanism
<addison> close #13
<gb> Closed [30]action #13
[30] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/13
<addison> #12
<gb> [31]Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues
raised by google (on aphillips)
[31] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/12
<addison> #11
<gb> [32]Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which
are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal)
[32] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/11
<addison> #10
<gb> [33]Action 10 With florian triage richard's article into a
list of potential generics (on frivoal, fantasai)
[33] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/10
<addison> #9
<gb> [34]Action 9 Follow up with ecma-402 on next steps and
start tc39 discussion (on aphillips)
[34] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/9
<addison> close #9
<gb> Closed [35]action #9
[35] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/9
<addison> #8
<gb> [36]Action 8 Create pr against canvas formatted text (on
aphillips)
[36] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8
<addison> #7
<gb> [37]Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting
comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin,
r12a, bert-github)
[37] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7
<addison> #5
<gb> [38]Action 5 Check into how to list questions at the top
of a digest and/or improve lang enablement communications (on
r12a)
[38] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/5
<addison> #4
<gb> [39]Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the
character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a)
[39] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4
addison: my intention is to publish specdev out to /TR
… so that it's somewhat in sync with tr-design
… and then we can go back and get the image stuff in tr-design
Info Share
addison: I worked with PLH to insert some additional guard
steps into the process
… our transitions will not proceed if we have a needs
resolution issue open against a spec
… I think that's a good thing
… I'm going to be working with PLH and some of the AC reps to
push on companies that haven't contributed to this WG
… try to generate some more participation
RADAR Review
addison: if you could think of people who ought to be
participating and who work for a member company, let me know
<addison> [40]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
[40] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
addison: we have no new incoming requests
xfq: no issues for DAPT
addison: Securing Verifiable Credentials using JOSE and COSE
… they have an i18n consideration section
… I did look at it and filed an issue about that
… mainly because I think they should remove their i18n
consideration section
… it doesn't say anything useful
r12a: include a note so the implementers don't ignore the i18n
considerations
… which sounded to me quite useful
<gb> [41]Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with
existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
[41] https://github.com/w3c/Adapt/issues/240
I18N ⇔ CSS
[42]https://www.w3.org/2023/09/27-i18n-minutes.html
[42] https://www.w3.org/2023/09/27-i18n-minutes.html
<addison> fuqiao: discussed a few things
<addison> ... generic font family
<addison> ... florian says the wg wasn't sure about adding new
generics, but no longer the case
<addison> ... if useful we can add them
<addison> ... he thinks we should start making a list of font
faces, what their license is
<addison> ... which generic they belong to
<addison> ... has some questions about richard's article
<addison> addison: who is "we"? I18N?
<addison> fuqiao: i18n + css
<addison> ... wonders if the article is the list of the most
important ones
<addison> richard: the article just picks several styles to
make clear what we're talking about
... that we need to support styles, not meant to be exhaustive
… if you read my orthography notes
… came across one the other day, sure there are plenty more
[43]https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/articles/typography/
fontstyles.en.html
[43]
https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/articles/typography/fontstyles.en.html
addison: I think some of the lreq group might want to think
about it
Jck: Arabic is an example you probably do not want to use
addison: the Arabic script has a variety of font styles
… r12a's article has a number of those
… how one would approach, I'm not 100% sure
… but that seems like an area where we would want the community
to work through it
<r12a> [44]https://r12a.github.io/scripts/
switch.html?section=writing_styles
[44]
https://r12a.github.io/scripts/switch.html?section=writing_styles
<r12a> ^ just lists a few
addison: here's a list of fonts, here's what license they have,
etc.
r12a: I was worried a bit when we're trying to list all the
fonts
… I think what is useful is to list the system fonts,
pre-installed system fonts, for a particular orthography
… for some languages where there is no installed font it gets a
little more complicated
addison: I would expect if there's a system installed font on
the major platforms for a generic family
r12a: Apple gives you access to most of the Noto fonts
… but I don't think Windows does that
addison: if we start with a well described space like Chinese
… that can serve as a model for other languages
r12a: I think what is also gonna be necessary though is a clear
description of why people use this particular font style
[45]https://www.w3.org/TR/
clreq/#four_commonly_used_typefaces_for_chinese_composition
[45]
https://www.w3.org/TR/clreq/#four_commonly_used_typefaces_for_chinese_composition
ACTION: xfq to work with clreq to investigate or produce a
generics proposal
<gb> Created [46]action #48
[46] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/48
atsushi: we cannot divide fonts into categories clearly, like
some fonts are for accessibility
r12a: bear in mind there are minority languages that have
distinct styling
… two very different ways of being written
<gb> [47]Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with
existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
[47] https://github.com/w3c/Adapt/issues/240
fuqiao: about sideways-rl etc., florian says no news, curious
if a language needs this
r12a: English
… we have people like Jen from Apple who put tutorials together
telling people that if they want to put their English text
running bottom to top or top to bottom
addison: it's no one's primary writing mode that I'm aware of
… but it's a secondary mode that people need
ACTION: addison to contact unicode about emphasis mark skipping
<gb> Created [48]action #49
[48] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/49
r12a: the AOB part of that minutes is quite an important thing
… the text autospace was at the top of the Chinese list, which
sounds good to me
… the other thing for me is vertical forms
Internationalization Review for VCDM 2.0
addison: they invited us to a special call next Tuesday
… I will go to that call
… you're all invited to that call
… my intention is to show them the web app manifest example
… regardless of what you do at the end, should be able to point
to a natural language string and find out what the lang/dir of
that is
… either because there's a document level default
… or because there's an override on the value
… I don't actually care how you do that, so long as it is
possible
… they are a JSON-LD based spec
… but they don't want to force people to use JSON-LD processing
… like @context
Definition of 'string' revisited
[49]https://
deploy-preview-117--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#char_string
[49]
https://deploy-preview-117--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#char_string
[50]w3c/bp-i18n-specdev#117
[50] https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/117
addison: I have not made the changes to the glossary pending us
finishing this work
… there's a recommendation about DOMString and a recommendation
about USVString
… I'm open to suggestions
<gb> [51]Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with
existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
[51] https://github.com/w3c/Adapt/issues/240
addison: I would like to finish this off and merge it, maybe
we'll do that in next week's call
[52]Adapt#240 and Unicode SAH
[52] https://github.com/w3c/Adapt/issues/240
addison: the last thing that I'll take up is [53]adapt#240
[53] https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240
<gb> [54]Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with
existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
[54] https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240
addison: Debbie Anderson and SAH haven't chimed in on the
thread to say what Unicode thinks
r12a: I think that what they're looking for actually is not
symbols
… but Unicode code points that represent concept
… and some of those concepts are all associated with Bliss
symbols
… and some of them are not
… we have this potentially unbounded list of concepts
… could be represented with very different symbols
… and different repertoieres are going to have different sets
of concept bindings
… that sounds kind of scary to me
… making a hieroglyphic system
… hieroglyphic is very similar to Chinese characters in many
ways
… if they're defining concepts, they're going to have a whole
bunch of code points that don't really have a representative
glyph
… it's like defining an ontology
AOB?
xfq: vacation from Sep 29 to Oct 6
r12a: vacation tomorrow
Summary of action items
1. [55]xfq to work with clreq to investigate or produce a
generics proposal
2. [56]addison to contact unicode about emphasis mark skipping
Received on Friday, 29 September 2023 00:54:14 UTC