[minutes] Internationalization telecon 2021-10-28


  – DRAFT –
           Internationalization WG 2021 TPAC (Thursday, 28 Oct)

28 October 2021

    [2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.

       [2] https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2021_TPAC
       [3] https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-i18n-irc


           addison, atsushi, fantasai, JcK_, maud, MURATA_, plh,
           r12a, xfq


           Addison Phillips



     1. [4]agenda review
     2. [5]ruby a11y
     3. [6]self introduction from Maud Stiernet
     4. [7]AOB?
     5. [8]character restriction in EPUB
     6. [9]from CSS MTG
     7. [10]Summary of action items

Meeting minutes

    <addison> COGA minutes are at: [11]https://www.w3.org/2021/10/

      [11] https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-coga-minutes.html

   agenda review

    [no objection from call]

   ruby a11y

    [self introduction from Murata Makoto]

    murata: I gave a talk at APAWG on ruby related roles, and will
    be explained later here

    <MURATA_> [12]https://github.com/Japan-Daisy-Consortium/

      [12] https://github.com/Japan-Daisy-Consortium/documents/wiki/Text-to-Speech-of-Electronic-Documents-Containing-Ruby:-User-Requirements

    murata: hope to create a WG Note based on above wiki page
    … and hope to be a joint of A11y and i18n WGs

    murata: let me demonstrate insteresting examples on ruby T2S
    … how harmful double reading is
    … double reading means to T2S both base and ruby annotation,
    sometimes that make reading totally incorrect
    … so, double reading is quite dangerous
    … but for some ruby used for non phonetics, but as annotation
    … slide p3
    … for these cases, double reading is the most appropriate
    … on that point, we need to be possible to specify whether
    phonetics or annotation
    … slide p4
    … another example why reading phonetic ruby can be dangerous
    … these examples are very carefully selected, although
    … ruby is in Kana characters, sometimes will cause additional
    issue, like Ha and Wa

    murata: there are many issues on T2S of ruby, so I would want
    to publish a WG Note on this point

    r12a: looking at wiki page, have two things I don't really know
    … one is how to publish as a joint WG Note
    … you want to wait movement of a11y along with i18n movement
    … if it doesn't provide explicit instructions on handling on
    ruby T2S, it doesn't work

    murata: working on another companion document on this point
    … but not sure how to finish that document
    … on a11y tools, engines, etc., toolchain is complecated

    plh: Murata is not a part of groups? need to join.
    … it is a Note, not rec-track matter
    … if this document will move to rec-track later, issue need to
    raise, although

    addison: if we are to have a joint publication, one WG should
    host or?

    r12a: a bit more background, this is coming from JL-TF under
    IG, like simple-ruby, which is published through i18n WG

    plh: owner ship transfer is fine if both groups agree
    … if one group owns the documentation, that group need to issue
    … would not change anything on publication process

    fantasai: need to involve a11y groups to get attention
    … it would be difficult to get attention from them, where they
    don't have an experties on that area
    … but, formal approval need to go through both groups

    <Zakim> r12a, you wanted to react to r12a

    <fantasai> i18n has the expertise to support the editor

    r12a: document has currently use in i18n area, and having a
    related document within us

    <fantasai> but a11y needs to be involved, because this requires
    changes to a lot of things, from specs to OS APIs

    <fantasai> having it a joint publication means a11y needs to
    pay attention

    fantasai: this document would not ever become rec-track
    … several items need to be considered on ruby T2S, like how T2S
    handles ruby or markup
    … this document would serves similar role as JLREQ or Aharon's
    bidi problems in HTML document, explaining the problems but not
    inventing solutions

    <fantasai> fantasai: the NOTE would open up the problem space
    and explain it, and other REC-track documents would be written
    informed by this NOTE

    r12a: question in my mind, bidi document is in similar
    … i18n WG raised issue on that document to external groups

    <addison> (for reference: [13]https://www.w3.org/TR/html-bidi/)

      [13] https://www.w3.org/TR/html-bidi/)

    r12a: to Makoto, is it ok to publish as i18n WG Note, or still
    want to involve a11y

    murata: no strong opiniton, but want to get attention from a11y
    … I've gate a talk about my proposal of two ARIA roles on ruby
    … for first role, it was pointed to be submitted to whatwg
    … for second one, one points to agree with ARIA role, but some
    points to be as whatwg attribute

    addison: we have a tracking issue for Whatwg repositories, and
    label your one with that after adding issue

    r12a: should we add, or HTML WG?

    fantasai: need to resolve question of whether ruby is being
    specced in WHATWG or W3C first

    plh: WICG is an option
    … they incubate new items in html, and some will be brought
    … advantage over ARIA is a support by browsers and tools

    addison: what is next step?
    … currently don't have a document
    … do you have a sense when document will come?

    murata: hope to create an html document by respec, once
    repository is available

    r12a: where do we create was in discussion, in jlreq could be
    … if we want to have as a joint document, we may need to

    plh: when creating new repositories, consider who to own

    addison: If we create, but also we need to ask a11y to be

    murata: ARIA and APA

    fantasai: ARIA is more about defining aria roles, right? But
    this is a use cases document, not defining aria roles

    What we document is not a technical solution. Although it may
    be related to ARIA, it is mainly an a11y use case.

    addison: murata-san, already have discussion with a11y, do they
    surpirise if we ask them on this?

    murata: I've already talked with a11y, and they should know
    … they are not not yet enthusiastic

    addison: measn they don't want to work on this or?

    ACTION: addison: reach out to APA about potential joint
    publication of T2S ruby requirements with I18N

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1090 - Reach out to apa about
    potential joint publication of t2s ruby requirements with i18n
    [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-11-04].

    murata: seems not understanded yet

    addison: will start conversation with them

    ACTION: atsushi: create repo for ruby t2s doc

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1091 - Create repo for ruby t2s doc
    [on Atsushi Shimono - due 2021-11-04].

    r12a: will create repo, and review doucment carefully and send
    feedback to Murata


   self introduction from Maud Stiernet

    maud: coming from ARIA, Florian and Richard attended a session
    with us last week, and we discussed on children about writing
    in EU and US, and Florian talked also about ruby use in Japan
    … how children literecy problem could be helped,
    … it's very interesting if you really work on the concept

    r12a: is a standalone group or a11y group?

    maud: one community, as task force, we are going to present to
    several task forces

    addison: formal community group or group of individuals?

    maud: in wiki page, there is agenda, notes, but still as a
    community of individuals
    … as CG

    <addison> [14]https://www.w3.org/community/

      [14] https://www.w3.org/community/accessibility4children/

    murata: children rely on ruby

    maud: there is one another item to add
    … whether there is questions on children, and who/how to
    contact people. if any information is available

    <fantasai> [discussion on adding to self-review checklist]

    r12a: for horizontal review, adding an issue is the best way

    <addison> [15]https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev

      [15] https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev

    r12a: there are more than one checklist
    … there is different sort of things, like for html or css

    maud: list for developers

    <r12a> [16]https://www.w3.org/TR/international-specs/

      [16] https://www.w3.org/TR/international-specs/

    <r12a> [17]https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues

      [17] https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues

    r12a: like for arabic, children is a bit difficult to read them

    maud: we are working for other various areas, including visual

    r12a: if you have writting things down, we can review the

    maud: we have some list of requirements for now

    addison: one suggestion to bring us before you finish ones
    … during a development phase


    xfq: if no, I would like to discuss of character restriction in

    <xfq> [18]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1430

      [18] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1430

   character restriction in EPUB

    xfq: we discussed this few days ago, and files draft here
    … EPUB is restricting filenames to reject emojis etc.
    … ok to send this issue to EPUB?

    addison: seems good to me

    murata: is there any use case?

    addison: if author use it in title, tag could contain
    … people could do anything
    … question is that is this artificial restriction or just don't
    want to use these characters?

    xfq: if filesystem allows these characters, there is no reason
    to restrict these

    addison: if there is any restriction on some filesystem, but I
    think no

    r12a: it seems to be placed ago, and kept left there

    murata: apple applies normalization, and see different result
    due to normalization
    … this could avoid some problem

    addison: not case for this? some could work differently for non
    characters etc.

    murata: long time ago, Martin wrote a document of interactions
    between html and unicode codepoint, still valid document?

    r12a: no

    [agreed to send as review issue]

   from CSS MTG

    r12a: two things
    … logical properties, discussion held and some progrees there
    … generic font name, seems some progress after call
    … for third point, no time yesterday, and would join sometime

    addison: maybe we can close some issues

Summary of action items

     1. [19]addison: reach out to APA about potential joint
        publication of T2S ruby requirements with I18N
     2. [20]atsushi: create repo for ruby t2s doc

Received on Thursday, 28 October 2021 17:49:27 UTC