[minutes] Internationalization telecon 2021-09-02


            Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

02 September 2021

    [2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.

       [2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Aug/0018.html
       [3] https://www.w3.org/2021/09/02-i18n-irc


           Addison, Atsushi, David, Fuqiao, JcK, Richard


           Addison Phillips



     1. [4]Agenda Review
     2. [5]Action Items
     3. [6]Info Share
     4. [7]RADAR Review
     5. [8]UAX50 change request to UTC from JLReq TF
     6. [9]HTML snapshot review
     7. [10]TPAC
     8. [11]HTML 4814
     9. [12]Summary of action items

Meeting minutes

    <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference

    <addison> scribenick David

    Atsushi: Did we sorto out TPAC plans

   Agenda Review

   Action Items

    <addison> [13]https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/

      [13] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

    <addison> action-1039?

    <trackbot> [14]action-1039: Addison Phillips to Propose pr for
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/4814 -- due 2021-07-01 --

      [14] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1039

    Adison: 1039 Taken over for PR 4814 Stillo under discussion. On
    Agenda later.

    <addison> action-1060?

    <trackbot> [15]action-1060: Atsushi Shimono to Follow up on
    citpc/jltf request to utc about 4 characters and bring doc for
    review by wg when ready -- due 2021-08-26 -- OPEN

      [15] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1060

    <addison> close action-1060

    <trackbot> Closed action-1060.

    <addison> action-1061?

    <trackbot> [16]action-1061: Richard Ishida to Remove encoding
    tests and put a link to wpt tests -- due 2021-08-26 -- OPEN

      [16] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1061

    Atsushi: sent emails to various parties. No upate on text from

    Addison: 1063 in progress, leave open

    R12a: 1066 not done yet

    Addison: 1067 in progress

    <addison> action-1068?

    <trackbot> [17]action-1068: Addison Phillips to Put "foot in
    the door" for tpac and survey group for days/times -- due
    2021-09-02 -- OPEN

      [17] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1068

    <addison> close action-1068

    <trackbot> Closed action-1068.

    <addison> action-1069?

    <trackbot> [18]action-1069: Addison Phillips to Ping chairs for
    tpac cross meetings -- due 2021-09-02 -- OPEN

      [18] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1069

    Addison: 1068 Done - TPAC started

    <addison> close action-1069

    <trackbot> Closed action-1069.

    Addison: 1069 pinged chairs for meetings

   Info Share

    R12a: Received a nomination from Glocal to join working group

    <r12a> [19]https://www.glocalqs.com/en/ Fátima Bana

      [19] https://www.glocalqs.com/en/

   RADAR Review

    <addison> [20]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

      [20] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

    addison: 1 new3 incoming glanced at by r12a regarding CSS
    scroll bars

    Atsushi: agree with r12a

    Action: addison: reply to CSS about scrollbars

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1070 - Reply to css about scrollbars
    [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-09-09].

    addison: shal we move to done and inform CSS WG, and thank them
    for not causing I18n issues.

    addison: HTML draft - on Agenda later. NO reason to hold them
    back. Then reply with completed review.

   UAX50 change request to UTC from JLReq TF

    addison: UAX50 Do we need to discuss?

    r12a: Short summary useful

    r12a had a response from Kida-san . They wish to change
    character properties for some in vertical text. Wrote to ???.
    Onl y concern that W3C should have a mention.

    r12a: Can we publish it as a joint document? What does that

    r12a: Naming w3C as a source doesn't seem like a problem.

    addison: Who would we reply to?

    r12a: it is only a change proposal for unicode.

    addison: no objection to it coming from us or them.

    addison: What value does the CITPC (Coded character-sets
    Information Technology Promotion Council) add?

    r12a: Having both orgs would be useful for the Japanese market

    atsushi: CITPC has many companies as members, so this could be
    a Japanese side issue.

    r12a: Kida-San thinks it would be good to be formally reviewed
    and also by the CLReq people.

    Action: richard: send UAX50 change request document for review
    by WG

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1071 - Send uax50 change request
    document for review by wg [on Richard Ishida - due 2021-09-09].

    r12a: everyone look at it when I send it, please.

    xfq: has discussed some changes in this request. e.g. full
    width semi-colon. Main difference is fallback in simplified

    xfq: This mainly a problem of mapping to the Adobe Japan
    character collection. People generally agree with the changes,
    but this in not the final draft.

    xfq: will share the final draft. This hasn't been shared with

    addison: it would be good if it is shared.

    <r12a> [21]https://github.com/CITPCSHARE/UAX50/wiki/

      [21] https://github.com/CITPCSHARE/UAX50/wiki/Request-to-revise-UAX-50-for-the-harmonization-with-Adobe-Japan1

    atsushi: We need to look at conflict between Chinese and

    Action: xfq: send feedback from clreq to jlreq on UAX50
    proposed changes

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1072 - Send feedback from clreq to
    jlreq on uax50 proposed changes [on Fuqiao Xue - due

    r12a: Postioning it as a W3C and CITPC, can Atsushi take the

    atsushi: I will, but may need some assistance

    Action: atsushi: coordinate CITPC and W3C publication of UAX50
    change request

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1073 - Coordinate citpc and w3c
    publication of uax50 change request [on Atsushi Shimono - due

    jck: If these are going in as comment notes. Why not both
    submit their own comments and say that they have noted the
    other ones?

    addison: 1 formal request is needed. Whoever sends it, if we
    are sending, then we need to approve it.

    addison: There is strength to a Japanese org sending it. UTC
    will look at the factual arguments, whatever the source.

    jck: Agrees strongly

    r12a: Head of CITPC is also prominent on JLReq

    addison: Anthing more on this issue?

   HTML snapshot review

    <addison> [22]https://github.com/w3c/htmlwg/issues/17

      [22] https://github.com/w3c/htmlwg/issues/17

    addison: before TPAC talk about HTML Snapshot review

    addison: this is the regular snapshot. It has 3 I18n related
    issues. The look fine but others may have comments.

    addison: any thoughts

    jck: anything where there are BOM sniffing does worry me.

    addison: This does sniff the BOM.

    addison: Any objections?

    addison: no

    <r12a> no objection


    <xfq> [23]https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2021/GroupMeetings

      [23] https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2021/GroupMeetings

    addison: For TPAC note sent to chairs saying we are avaailable,
    in particular Tuesday of that week.

    addison: That's the extent, so far. Time or day could be moved.

    addison: There were several invitations including from CSS,
    Accesibility. We can schedule the meetings

    r12a: Personalisation would like a meeting some time, TPAC is a
    long way off. We are blocking them.

    <addison> [24]https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2021/GroupMeetings

      [24] https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2021/GroupMeetings

    addison: TPAC call, are there different preferences for how it
    should be set up?

    addison: 26th October is my initial date.

    addison: Tuesday

    r12a: Good for me. CSS was asking for us to join their meeting
    on Wednesday.

    addison: Time not set for our sessions.

    addison: allow for several hours, depending on topics.

    r12a: 2 hours would be good. We should schedule another on
    Thursday for 2 hours

    <addison> [25]https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/

      [25] https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144

    addison: Do we need to meet with A11y and consider the issues
    first, particularly pictures as alternatives for words.

    r12a: They aim to BLISS symbol numbers represent a concept but
    glyphs can be changed

    <r12a> [26]https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/

      [26] https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144

    addison: Fine for replace a noun with a picture of a noun, some
    verbs are reasonably replaceable. Can you define a grammar for
    compositional elements.

    r12a: only simple examples of composition given.

    addison: grammar and directionality are not addressed.

    addison: There was a working video at a TPAC several years ago.
    I'm still unclear about it. Was it too simplistic?

    addison: They were doing it with a Bidi language.


    <r12a> Also, we have added a Hebrew example for symbols
    illustrating how to form a

    <r12a> conjugated term (see

    <r12a> [27]https://raw.githack.com/w3c/

      [27] https://raw.githack.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/edits07062020/content/index.html#symbol-explanation

    <r12a> ).

    <r12a> ]]

    addison: People working on this are not linguists so may miss
    linguistic issues.

    addison: When do the want to meet?

    r12a: initially thought Mondays but then Tuesday was mentioned.

    r12a: dates suggested were last month

    r12a: 10am Boston so 14:00 UTC

    addison: r12a, shall we go?

    r12a: yes

    addison: to respond to them.

    Action: addison: respond to personalization-semantics that we
    can meet the 13th at 1400Z

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1074 - Respond to
    personalization-semantics that we can meet the 13th at 1400z
    [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-09-09].

    addison: CSS would like us to see them. Shall we negotiate a

    r12a: They suggested a time

    addison: Wed 27th 16:00 UTC

    r12a: works for me

    addison: and me

    addison: does anyone else want to join us?

    Action: addison: respond to CSS confirm 27 Oct at 1600Z for
    TPAC crossover meeting

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1075 - Respond to css confirm 27 oct
    at 1600z for tpac crossover meeting [on Addison Phillips - due

    r12a: we need a list in advance of talking points. Both what we
    want and what they care about.

    addison: r12a has an action to review CSS text decoration

    addison: who wants to review CSS open issues?

    r12a: we all should

    r12a: Who do we contact for CSS open issues

    r12a: we need to slect the most important

    Action: xfq: review CSS open issues for important items to
    resolve in TPAC

    xfq: I'll look

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1076 - Review css open issues for
    important items to resolve in tpac [on Fuqiao Xue - due

    addison: Webauthn needs more discussion, as we didn't finish
    last week

   HTML 4814

    r12a: HTML 4814

    <addison> [28]https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/4814

      [28] https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/4814

    <addison> [29]https://github.com/aphillips/html/commit/

      [29] https://github.com/aphillips/html/commit/b0135d2aee490ef9d40c8bdffce840353c2e0e08

    addison: I have a pull request against it

    <addison> [30]https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/

      [30] https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7003#pullrequestreview-744095972

    addison: discussion of wording at the bottom

    r12a: You added "language appropriate case folding". Did you
    mean case conversion?

    r12a: I don't think there is a difference by language?

    addison: What about a string search that is language sensitive.

    r12a: there are some features like ignoring accents. The thrust
    is you need to normalise and case fold

    addison: In turkish you would lose linguistic information with
    a more promiscuous match.

    addison: Language appropriate case folding could map by

    addison: This is the purpose of CharMod, hence needing a
    document on searching strings and implementitions.

    r12a: We are mathching user input against a values. Is this
    string matching or string searching. i.e do you want to know if
    2 strings match.

    addison: values should be filtered by substrings in the list.
    Then there are different to types of mathching e.g. accents
    kana/kana matching

    addison: we are adding "beware of the complexity of searching".

    addison: One working group in the past was working on Find. We
    poitned out many issues, unless it is purely string matching
    (maybe case insensitive).

    r12a: complexity could come with an esset for example.

    jck: this could be entering dangerous territory, whether ours
    or HTML's

    r12a: We go for a permissive approach

    jck: This could cause problems

    jck: This was what early Unicode talked about string mathching
    after folding.

    addison: User interaction will provide ???

    r12a: I've added custom smarter matched to Uniview

    jck: that's a different matter to case folding

    r12a: if you type in Benin, with an e acute, should that match
    the ASCII Benin

    jck: forcing to ASCII is unreasonable

    r12a: more likely the other way around

    r12a: case folding is not a good place to start for string

    addison: for tokens it is fine

    addison: that is the responsibilty of CharModNorm

    jck: even for identifiers there are issue with case sensitive

    <addison> [31]https://w3c.github.io/string-search/

      [31] https://w3c.github.io/string-search/

    r12a: maybe case folding doesn't belong in this HTML spec

    addison: In a find command, there is normally an option to be
    case insensitive, or not. But you might need to be language
    sensitive manner.

    r12a: This is case mapping. You do the language tailoring for

    addison: string search doc in the link above. It was moved out
    of Charmod to keep for later. This is an example of it is
    really hard to describe than it looks. We need to write clearer
    specs, so we can identify the problems.

    jck: Clearer explanation of ??? would be very helpful.

    addison: Original intent was to warn of the complexities.

    r12a: does not think the Charmod Reference is useful.

    r12a: We need a searching document to point people at.
    Following this discussion this is about case matching not case
    folding. We don't want them to case fold.

    addison: It would be reasonable to have a case insensitve
    search, but warn of the challenges.

    r12a: that's case mapping, not case folding

    addison: it is case matching or caseless matching that we are
    interested in.

    addison: Shall I remove the sentence about normalisation and
    case folding?

    r12a: normalisation is important, but I think we should tale
    out case folding.

    r12a: We may need to mention case equivalence

    addison: I'll edit again for that.

    r12a: I will review later

Summary of action items

     1. [32]addison: reply to CSS about scrollbars
     2. [33]richard: send UAX50 change request document for review
        by WG
     3. [34]xfq: send feedback from clreq to jlreq on UAX50
        proposed changes
     4. [35]atsushi: coordinate CITPC and W3C publication of UAX50
        change request
     5. [36]addison: respond to personalization-semantics that we
        can meet the 13th at 1400Z
     6. [37]addison: respond to CSS confirm 27 Oct at 1600Z for
        TPAC crossover meeting
     7. [38]xfq: review CSS open issues for important items to
        resolve in TPAC

Received on Thursday, 2 September 2021 16:36:09 UTC