[minutes] Internationalization telecon 2021-07-22


  – DRAFT –
            Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

22 July 2021

    [2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.

       [2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jul/0025.html
       [3] https://www.w3.org/2021/07/22-i18n-irc


           addison, Bert, Richard

           Atsushi, Felix, Fuqiao

           Addison Phillips



     1. [4]Agenda Review
     2. [5]Action Items
     3. [6]Info Share
     4. [7]RADAR Review
     5. [8]"Awaiting Comment Resolution" reviews
     6. [9]Charmod-norm
     7. [10]Awaiting comment resolution
     8. [11]Summary of action items

Meeting minutes

    <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference

   Agenda Review

   Action Items

    <addison> [12]https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/

      [12] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

    r12a: Not done action-1039 yet.

    <addison> [13]https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/pull/56

      [13] https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/pull/56

    addison: Did not yet do 1050 yet, but will soon.
    … could r12a review what I did direction?

    r12a: Call it "paragraph direction"? And then I will add that
    term and definition to the glossary.

    addison: The Glossary should contain definitions and then point
    to other docs.

    r12a: Only if there is additional info in that other doc.

    addison: The Glossary could indeed orignate terminology.

    r12a: That will be the case with "paragraph direction".

    r12a: I've been talking with Marcos about linking to glossary
    … He has a kind of references system.
    … Do we put things in that database? It is a syntax with square
    … There could be a database of our own, using a variant of that
    … I will investigate.

    Action: richard: investigate glossary linking solutions, e.g.

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1052 - Investigate glossary linking
    solutions, e.g. marcos's [on Richard Ishida - due 2021-07-29].

    addison: Did not do action-1051 yet.

   Info Share

    No info to share.

   RADAR Review

    <addison> [14]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

      [14] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

    addison: We got a request to review DOM. Who wants to do it?

    Fuqiao did the previous DOM review.

    addison: I will assign Fuqiao for now.

   "Awaiting Comment Resolution" reviews


    <r12a> [15]https://w3c.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#string_match

      [15] https://w3c.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#string_match

    r12a: I went through the issues mentioned on the agenda and
    thought about improving specdev.
    … There are matching sections, but no matching dos and don'ts.
    Should we add those?

    addison: There is mustard in charmod. Does that not appear

    r12a: Not sure if the latest changes in charmod have been taken
    into account in specdev.

    <addison> [16]http://aphillips.github.io/

      [16] http://aphillips.github.io/charmod-norm/#charmod_n11n_should_not

    addison: charmod in many case more strongly worded.

    specdev section 5.3 seems mostly verbatim from charmod, but
    specdev section 5.2 is not.

    r12a: I made some content for specdev, should we interleave
    that with text from charmod-norm?

    addison: charmod-norm has algorithm and choices for spec
    writers. specdev's text is not wrong, but it should diretc
    people to go and read charmod-norm.
    … With the text in specdev, people will not necessarily arrive
    at the right matching algorithm.

    r12a: That is the case for all mustard in specdev. There are
    always links to get more information.
    … specdev is a succinct story. Our discussion has always been
    how much should be in it.

    addison: I want our best practices documents to have the
    correct best practices and have that reflected in specdev.
    … My concern here is that we have some best practices that are
    kind of high level. That should be explained.

    r12a: I think I'm saying the same thing, but I have a different
    solution. Let's look at sections that follow. Specdev has
    mustard, but here is nothing in charmod-norm.
    … So we can copy it to charmod-norm and then the two can be the
    same verbatim.
    … In other words: I think there is content missing in

    addison: That could be true.

    <addison> [17]http://aphillips.github.io/

      [17] http://aphillips.github.io/charmod-norm/#CompatibilityFoldNormalizationStep

    addison: There is a big red box. Maybe we meant to have mustard
    … Do you want to make a pull request?

    r12a: specdev has had the mustard for some time, but the links
    were not very useful. I found linking to the right place was
    actually a bit tricky.
    … There is a bit of information at the end of the link and then
    links to other sections.
    … It is easier for specdev to point to one location that has
    everything you need.
    … charmod-norm section 3.2.1 seems like a short section, but
    actually there is more, and then more after that...

    Action: richard: make PR for charmod-norm with proposed
    additions to mustard and organizational updates to section 3.2

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1053 - Make pr for charmod-norm with
    proposed additions to mustard and organizational updates to
    section 3.2 [on Richard Ishida - due 2021-07-29].

    r12a: We also should think about publishing, esp. charmod-norm.

    addison: Let's try getting through this round of editing. If it
    takes long, we can publish a snapshot.

    r12a: There is still an outstanding pull request.

    <r12a> [18]https://github.com/w3c/charmod-norm/pull/215/files

      [18] https://github.com/w3c/charmod-norm/pull/215/files

    addison: Any reason not to merge it?

    r12a: We can make the patch perfect and then merge, or merge
    and then improve the doc. I think the latter is better here.

    addison: OK, I will merge it now.

    <r12a> you have:

    <r12a> <span class=codepoint>&#x1F88;&#x0301;</span> [<span
    PROSGEGRAMMENI</span> + <span class=uname>U+0301 COMBINING
    ACUTE ACCENT</span>]

    <r12a> but it should be

    <r12a> <span class="codepoint" translate="no"><span
    lang="el">&#x1F8C;</span> [<a
    href="/scripts/greek/block#char1F8C"><span class="uname">U+1F8C

    r12a: Missing lang attribute, missing do-not-translate
    attribute and the codepoint tag should be around the whole
    … Not yet fixed in the document.
    … I used character references instead of characters, because
    the characters got normalized by the editor program.

    addison: I normally use character entities precisely for that
    … Do you fix the examples or should I? Can you make a pull

   Awaiting comment resolution

    <addison> [19]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/

      [19] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jul/0014.html

    r12a: I have another issue on charmod-norm:
    … There are situations, e.g., in Kasmiri, where half the people
    use precomposed letters and half use non-spacing sequences, and
    I find nothing in Unicode to normalize them.
    … Unicode says the precomposed character is only used in
    Kashmiri. Should we say what to do in that case?

    addison: I think Unicode should.

    r12a: Unicode model is based on semantics, but we see people
    use them graphically: use characters that look identical but
    that Unicode says not to use for that language.
    … E.g., a guy in India, knowledgable in principle, still often
    asks me how to do something in Kashmiri. There is total
    … Some things are orthography specific. Cataloguing everything
    is difficult. But somehow people have to write Kashmiri.
    … Font not always supports it.
    … E.g., there is an arabic diacritic that looks just right for
    Kashmiri, but it is not meant for Kashmiri.
    … Thus searching and normalizing in Kashmiri only half works.

    addison: Asking Unicode may lead to fallout. Kind of corner
    cases. If you don't write Kashmiri, you'll never notice. But if
    you write Kashmiri, you encounter it all the time.

    r12a: It is not just Kashmiri. Also happens in Bengali. You can
    use the wrong characters but that look right.
    … I think charmod-norm should at least have a note to say that
    even after following the ruls in the spec, there are still
    areas with problems.

    addison: We can add text. This seems to be mostly targeted at
    document authors, because there is no algorithm and thus
    authors have to take care themselves.
    … There are different keyboard implementations, also for
    Vietnamese, e.g., and people don't necessarily see what they

    <addison> [20]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/

      [20] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jul/0014.html

    addison: There are four items here ^^ without issues and that I
    think can be closed.

    <addison> [21]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

      [21] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

    addison: I used are the column "awaiting resolution" on the
    radar, from bottom to top, to see which items can be closed and
    moved to "completed".

    r12a: The UTR#53 issues are stale. Let's close.
    … For tracking-dnt, not sure. Maybe close and recycle?

    bert: No WG for it at the moment, so probably recycle when
    there is a WG again.

    r12a: Who is closing the issues?

    addison: I am.
    … I'll close the other non-contrversial ones as well.

Summary of action items

     1. [22]richard: investigate glossary linking solutions, e.g.
     2. [23]richard: make PR for charmod-norm with proposed
        additions to mustard and organizational updates to section

Received on Thursday, 22 July 2021 15:34:45 UTC