[minutes] Internationalization telecon 2021-06-10

https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-i18n-minutes.html











– DRAFT –
            Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

10 June 2021

    [2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.

       [2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jun/0004.html
       [3] https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-i18n-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Addison, Atsushi, Fuqiao, Richard

    Regrets
           JcK

    Chair
           Addison Phillips

    Scribe
           fsasaki, xfq

Contents

     1. [4]Agenda
     2. [5]Action Items
     3. [6]Info Share
     4. [7]Radar
     5. [8]Review comments for timing specs
     6. [9]CSS Counter Styles
     7. [10]String-Meta
     8. [11]AOB?

Meeting minutes

    <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference

   Agenda

   Action Items

    <addison> [12]https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/
    open

      [12] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

    action-925?

    <trackbot> [13]action-925: Addison Phillips to Update
    string-meta to include json-ld changes, etc. -- due 2020-07-09
    -- OPEN

      [13] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/925

    addison: started on that

    action-946?

    <trackbot> [14]action-946: Addison Phillips to Create
    definition of 'ltr'/'rtl'/'auto' that can be referenced by
    other specifications in string-meta -- due 2020-09-03 -- OPEN

      [14] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/946

    done by addison :)

    close action-946

    <trackbot> Closed action-946.

    action-1017?

    <trackbot> [15]action-1017: Addison Phillips to Send wpwg list
    of specs that implement lang/dir -- due 2021-04-22 -- OPEN

      [15] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1017

    addison: pending

    action-1031?

    <trackbot> [16]action-1031: Addison Phillips to Document the
    state of payment-request -- due 2021-06-03 -- OPEN

      [16] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1031

    addison: sent note to chairs, will keep action open until the
    github issue is update

    action-1032?

    <trackbot> [17]action-1032: Richard Ishida to Propose text for
    html 4814 (datalist find/string search) -- due 2021-06-03 --
    OPEN

      [17] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1032

    richard: pending

    action-1033?

    <trackbot> [18]action-1033: Addison Phillips to Create skeleton
    of "best practices for manifests" -- due 2021-06-10 -- OPEN

      [18] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1033

    addison: done

    close action-1033

    <trackbot> Closed action-1033.

   Info Share

   Radar

    <addison> [19]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

      [19] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

    addison: css counter styles, richard responed to fantasai
    … is "in review", is deeper review needed?

    richard: did not see anything that is a concern for us
    … small editorial thing has been fixed
    … review is done, nothing to report
    … we can move this to "done"

    addison: any volunteer to read counter styles? just move it to
    done

    xfq: I will have a look

    richard: hope that this will be published as rec

    xfq: chris and I go through all CSS specs, see what should be
    re-published
    … need to look at the tests for counter styles

    addison: so some period after CR publication will be available

    xfq: last CR was 4 years ago

    richard: the review I did is an update of the current spec
    … not 4 years old, brand new again

    addison: will go through normal CR & PR process

    atsushi: resource timing and user timing, is completed, part of
    the agenda
    … there is no issue for resource timing

    addison: so I move the doc to completed?

    atsushi: yes

    addison: will do
    … performance timeline is incoming

    atsushi: will take this

    xfq: closely related to timing specs

   Review comments for timing specs

    <atsushi> [20]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1392

      [20] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1392

    atsushi: from level 2 to level 3, one feature was added
    … convert to timestamp function
    … in their ticket, "storing match" is defined as match

    richard: what does a timestamp look like?

    atsushi: something from page load, a numeric value

    xfq: millisecond value

    addison: since epoc, or millisecond lapsed?

    atsushi: from epoch, I think
    … but could be both, per implementation

    atsushi: used to measure the marks between two points
    … output from the two marks is important

    richard: is the spec saying that they produce human readable
    output?

    atsushi: user can define mark or @@@

    <atsushi> [21]https://w3c.github.io/user-timing/#example-1

      [21] https://w3c.github.io/user-timing/#example-1

    atsushi: see performance mark with text label
    … each label can be defined by a developer

    addison: developer can name them, but these are just IDs, the
    rest is just numbers (time of milliseconds)

    atsushi: yes

    atsushi describing various process options

    addison: using "is" is a good use of this, because otherwise
    they do not define matches

    <Bert> +1

    addison: any objections about this comment? Other observations?

    +1

    <xfq> +1

    addison: atsushi, please file the comment
    … I will move the doc to "awaiting comment resolution"

   CSS Counter Styles

    <r12a> [22]https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/

      [22] https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/

    <addison> [23]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/
    member-i18n-core/2021Jun/0006.html

      [23] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jun/0006.html

    richard: there is a new version on TR
    … xfq published the doc
    … I published more docs yesterday
    … counter styles changes are:

    <r12a> [24]https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/

      [24] https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/

    <r12a> [25]https://www.w3.org/TR/
    predefined-counter-styles/#affixes

      [25] https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/#affixes

    richard: section 1.1: we got examples about suffixes and
    prefixes
    … seemed to me that it would start to make the doc very large
    … so I say: we define the base algorithm
    … and we say: we used the common default, and a note saying
    "these are common ways to do the affixes"
    … so we have notes instead of dublicating the styles
    … a section shows how to have a different separator, using the
    "extends" keyword
    … andrew cunningham is still clarifying things, with a delay
    due to the situation in Myanmar

    <addison> [26]https://www.w3.org/TR/
    predefined-counter-styles/#myanmar-styles

      [26] https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/#myanmar-styles

    <r12a> Alternative prefix/suffix styles

    <r12a> [27]https://www.w3.org/TR/
    predefined-counter-styles/#myanmar-styles

      [27] https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/#myanmar-styles

    richard: I changed Myanmar, it used to have default space
    suffix
    … parenthesis is more common, it seems

    richard: moved japanese and korean stuff into "japanese and
    korean" section
    … added bunch of other stuff

    <r12a> [28]https://www.w3.org/TR/2021/
    NOTE-predefined-counter-styles-20210606/#app-c

      [28] https://www.w3.org/TR/2021/NOTE-predefined-counter-styles-20210606/#app-c

    richard: we are in good position with the doc, I think
    … also went through tests in the test suite and the gap
    analysis

    addison: very cool!
    … should this be a "statement" in the new process?

    richard: no
    … we update this regularly, once we get more information

    <xfq> [29]https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/
    Drafts/#registries

      [29] https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/Drafts/#registries

    richard: you can use whatever keyword you want
    … so there is no "normative" recommendation, just stuff you may
    want to use
    … also no intend to cover all things you need, or limit things

    addison: ok

   String-Meta

    <addison> [30]https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/pull/55

      [30] https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/pull/55

    addison: pull request has bidi keywords in it
    … I added small subsection
    … xfq commented that basically ltr and rtl refers to CSS, auto
    refers to definition in HTML
    … question whether I should bring definitions here or put them
    by reference
    … started to indicate difference between ltr and cases to bring
    in auto
    … open the floor to comments

    richard: there might places where you need to use metadata,
    which resolves through other rules to left-to-right
    … if the direction of content is not known, you should use auto
    rules

    addison: if there is no direction, you use auto

    richard: you use auto

    addison: that is UBA

    richard: auto says: use the UBA
    … if you do not have auto, things are up to the application

    <addison> <p dir=ltr>dldld <span dir=auto>...</span>.... </p>

    richard: discussing section 2.4 ... that is "auto"

    addison: my thinking is two-fold:
    … if you send s.t., you should indicate the direction
    … if you do not know the direction, "auto" is not helpful

    richard: agree

    addison: if you do not know the direction, do not send it
    … if you define e.g. HTML, you need all three values

    r12a: some of the formats for which we wrote this document
    … we do recommend auto

    addison: we recommend the auto heuristics, but not necessarily
    the auto keyword
    … two things
    … first is define the direction, the dir attribute
    … under what situations you will allow those values and consume

    r12a: is there a problem if somebody uses the auto label?

    addison: i think i have enough information to do some more
    edits
    … do we want to draw specific distinctions or recommendations
    for when to use direction and when to use dir

    r12a: I read that and I had the same question

    addison: i could be less prescriptive and just leave that aside
    … we would be super sad to see both

    r12a: you could have lang and language

    addison: it's the same problem

    r12a: language is usually used for metadata

    epub: [31]https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/
    core/#sec-shared-attrs

      [31] https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/core/#sec-shared-attrs

    Publication Manifest: [32]https://www.w3.org/TR/
    pub-manifest/#manifest-lang-dir-global

      [32] https://www.w3.org/TR/pub-manifest/#manifest-lang-dir-global

    <addison> "property" not "data value"

    addison: i'll take another whack at it

    bert: i like it

   AOB?

    addison: developing localizable manifests
    … i used respec to create the draft
    … i used i18n-draft as the home
    … r12a do you suggest we should just make a new repo?

    r12a: it may end up being a very short note
    … if it's going to be an article it should be in an article
    format

    xfq: If we are writing for spec developers, a note might be
    better

    r12a: if we decide to make it into an article we don't want it
    to be in a repo

    addison: i'll move it to temp and we'll discuss whether it
    should be a note

    r12a: it depends on whether we're going to have mustards in it

    addison: it's a best practice document

    r12a: mustards are not normative, they are recommendations
    … a way of getting the message across
    … it wasn't to say these are the normative bits
    … even in charmod fundamental

    addison: if you have comments on the text
    … that would be super useful
    … i'll email the list

    <atsushi> I had the same issue for today's another meeting...

Received on Thursday, 10 June 2021 16:10:59 UTC