- From: r12a <ishida@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 17:17:31 +0100
- To: www International <www-international@w3.org>
https://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html
text version follows:
- DRAFT -
Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13 Jul 2017
[2]Agenda
[2]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2017Jul/0011.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-irc
Attendees
Present
Bert, addison, David, JcK, Steven, chaals-o, Jan
Regrets
Chair
Addison Phillips
Scribe
addison
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Agenda
2. [6]Microdata
3. [7]HTML5 and Email input
4. [8]Radar
5. [9]AOB?
6. [10]Info Share
* [11]Summary of Action Items
* [12]Summary of Resolutions
__________________________________________________________
trackbot, prepare teleconference
<scribe> ScribeNick: addison
Agenda
[13]https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
[13] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
action-631?
<trackbot> action-631 -- Addison Phillips to Invite chaals to
teleconference in two weeks to discuss microdata -- due
2017-07-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[14]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/631
[14] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/631
close action-631
<trackbot> Closed action-631.
action-632?
<trackbot> action-632 -- Addison Phillips to Update unicode-xml
to include change in status banner -- due 2017-07-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[15]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/632
[15] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/632
close action-632
<trackbot> Closed action-632.
action-633?
<trackbot> action-633 -- Richard Ishida to Create github repo
for new document (call it string-metadata) -- due 2017-07-13 --
OPEN
<trackbot>
[16]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/633
[16] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/633
close action-633
<trackbot> Closed action-633.
action-634?
<trackbot> action-634 -- Richard Ishida to Check john's comment
on floating times article -- due 2017-07-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[17]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/634
[17] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/634
close action-634
<trackbot> Closed action-634.
jck: talked to calendaring folks
... haven't heard back from resulting references
richard: needs a little more work, not sure what to do by end
of it
[18]http://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-floating-time
s.en
[18] http://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-floating-times.en
<scribe> ACTION: addison: update floating times q+a to address
confusing section at end [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action01]
[19] http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action01
<trackbot> Created ACTION-636 - Update floating times q+a to
address confusing section at end [on Addison Phillips - due
2017-07-20].
action-635?
<trackbot> action-635 -- Addison Phillips to Remind all to
think about ways and venues for reaching out to larger audience
for reviews -- due 2017-07-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[20]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/635
[20] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/635
close action-635
<trackbot> Closed action-635.
Microdata
chaals: microdata is like microformats to put data into a
document
... microdata doesn't do i18n
... all attributes around i18n get thrown away
richard: reason why?
chaals: they felt it would be easier
... quick hack version of
... trying to spec it out and how does it fit into space where
... multiple approaches exist
... have proposed that instead of resolving "lacking thing"
... then use RDFa
... better at handling i18n
... need to get schema.org et al to rebuild parsers to support
... instead of making microdata a competitor to rdfa
... suggest that for uses needing e.g. internationalisation
then it is easy to convert your markup to RDFa which can handle
proper i18n
addison: what would you like us to do?
chaals: okay for microdata to move forward? even though weak in
i18n
richard: where does it say that now?
chaals: point out rough parallels but don't spell out
addison: are there partizans for microdata somewhere?
chaals: schema founders proposed it first, but found it was bad
for things
... lots of microdata out there
... webcommons micro crawl
... billions of triples, 2/3 of which are in microdata
... which is why a rec is being produced
richard: schema.org balked at using microdata...
chaals: no, still accept
... so we started out suggesting use microdata
... as we looked at it more carefully
... it's pretty simplistic and badly designed
... trying to map data into an RDF graph
... microdata can be used for that, but no fun
... RDFa or JSON-LD more fit for purpose
... RDFa close match
<r12a> [21]https://w3c.github.io/microdata/#i18n-considerations
[21] https://w3c.github.io/microdata/#i18n-considerations
addison: this is buried, are you planning for a big "sticker"
on the whole?
... saying we don't need to review?
chaals: if you review it, you'll find it's highly inadequate
... would like to move forward, because useful for simple cases
... and when you "grow up" then here are better alternatives
richard: would prefer if people used world-ready from the start
addison: so do brief review, propose text for i18n section and
status?
chaals: happy, but want to do CR transition by end of month
jan: I think it's wonderful, having hard time finding people to
work on microdata
richard: do in issue list so others can see
chaals: use issues
addison: if tagged with i18n tags then lists will mirror
HTML5 and Email input
chaals: split into two issues
... left hand side and right hand side
... right side, we expect addresses to normalize to punycode,
i.e. ascii
... we expect browsers to provide ability to input actual
characters
... actually easier to see in real Unicode string
... say mixed russian and english
... also easier to type
... we didn't make any change to left hand side
jck: on right hand side
... while principal you describe is correct, example terrible
<chaals> [22]the left-hand-side issue
[22] https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/845
jck: if string with cyrillic is displayed in punycode
... it's a warning
... in general case exactly right
... left side is more problematic
... standard says "don't convert"
... use native character form in UTF-8
... don't allow non-ascii means don't use those addresses
chaals: no browser currently accepts anything on left hand side
anything but ascii
... won't put in CR if no implementation
... could put in FPWD of 5.3
... but getting 5.2 CR out
jck: your recommendation is why browsers don't, e.g. a chicken
and egg problem
chaals: reason to change right hand side, to push browsers
... going back to russian example
... punycode as helpful warning is only useful if assume ascii
email address
... not as powerful outside
jck: conclusion is correct, and correct for another reason
mentioned on thread
... because a couple of vendors have decided to implement local
domains/domain names
... that are not ACE but are in native encoding
<chaals> [23]the email issue for the right-hand-side
[23] https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/538
jck: advantages to browsers to keep in that form until late
binding
chaals: recognize the problem
... like HTML to push browsers to be helpful
... lot of pushback on parent security issue
... not well argued case?
... getting some support to move in this direction is
surprisingly hard
jck: would a letter from chinese government help?
chaals: yes, especially in github
jck: will try to get generated
chaals: better if they proded someone to implement support
addison: need to find a browser to do it?
chaals: yes
jck: arguably, what html should be doing is accepting what it
gets and passing
... keep in utf-* until it interfaces with i.e. smtp
... html is trying to secondguess
addison: utility is to page authors, not necessarily about
sending
chaals: don't think html got syntax right
... they were inventing stuff at that time
... comment for real serious use case and really want
... at least in a draft, possibly marked "at risk" when goes in
... saying we want is good, but need impleentation
jck: concern about ascii-only problem that goes back to at
least html2
<scribe> ACTION: jck: stimulate non-ascii email advocates to
provide feedback on EAI support in HTML [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action02]
[24] http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action02
<trackbot> Created ACTION-637 - Stimulate non-ascii email
advocates to provide feedback on eai support in html [on John
Klensin - due 2017-07-20].
chaals: expect call for consensus on 5.2 next week
... also plan to start 5.3
... from the 5.2 doc so can ship next year
... do you anticpate an objection?
addison: don't expect to object
chaals: a formal statement would be helpful to me
<scribe> ACTION: addison: provide a formal statement on i18n
position on eai in html [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action03]
[25] http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action03
<trackbot> Created ACTION-638 - Provide a formal statement on
i18n position on eai in html [on Addison Phillips - due
2017-07-20].
chaals: easiest place to comment is on the issue
... can post a pointer there
Radar
[26]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/projects/1
[26] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/projects/1
action-622?
<trackbot> action-622 -- Bert Bos to Forward poe/ordl comments
on behalf of bert -- due 2017-06-08 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[27]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/622
[27] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/622
AOB?
Info Share
richard: unicode in xml was published today
... about an hour ago as a retired note
... so at bottom of our list of our TRs
... have a new github repo called string-metadata
... a hefty PR in there
addison: will take up
<chaals> [Note that HTML 5.2 includes input
type="datetime-local" which is a floating time zone. I'll see
if it makes sense to comment on the question]
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: addison: provide a formal statement on i18n
position on eai in html [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: addison: update floating times q+a to address
confusing section at end [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: jck: stimulate non-ascii email advocates to
provide feedback on EAI support in HTML [recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action02]
[28] http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action03
[29] http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action01
[30] http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action02
Summary of Resolutions
[End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 13 July 2017 16:17:48 UTC