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[minutes] Internationalization telecon 2017-07-13

From: r12a <ishida@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 17:17:31 +0100
To: www International <www-international@w3.org>
Message-ID: <fd886e63-c1d1-16e9-fd4f-c06424ee779d@w3.org>

text version follows:


            Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

13 Jul 2017



    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-irc


           Bert, addison, David, JcK, Steven, chaals-o, Jan

           Addison Phillips



      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Agenda
          2. [6]Microdata
          3. [7]HTML5 and Email input
          4. [8]Radar
          5. [9]AOB?
          6. [10]Info Share
      * [11]Summary of Action Items
      * [12]Summary of Resolutions

    trackbot, prepare teleconference

    <scribe> ScribeNick: addison



      [13] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open


    <trackbot> action-631 -- Addison Phillips to Invite chaals to
    teleconference in two weeks to discuss microdata -- due
    2017-07-13 -- OPEN


      [14] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/631

    close action-631

    <trackbot> Closed action-631.


    <trackbot> action-632 -- Addison Phillips to Update unicode-xml
    to include change in status banner -- due 2017-07-13 -- OPEN


      [15] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/632

    close action-632

    <trackbot> Closed action-632.


    <trackbot> action-633 -- Richard Ishida to Create github repo
    for new document (call it string-metadata) -- due 2017-07-13 --


      [16] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/633

    close action-633

    <trackbot> Closed action-633.


    <trackbot> action-634 -- Richard Ishida to Check john's comment
    on floating times article -- due 2017-07-13 -- OPEN


      [17] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/634

    close action-634

    <trackbot> Closed action-634.

    jck: talked to calendaring folks
    ... haven't heard back from resulting references

    richard: needs a little more work, not sure what to do by end
    of it


      [18] http://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-floating-times.en

    <scribe> ACTION: addison: update floating times q+a to address
    confusing section at end [recorded in

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action01

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-636 - Update floating times q+a to
    address confusing section at end [on Addison Phillips - due


    <trackbot> action-635 -- Addison Phillips to Remind all to
    think about ways and venues for reaching out to larger audience
    for reviews -- due 2017-07-13 -- OPEN


      [20] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/635

    close action-635

    <trackbot> Closed action-635.


    chaals: microdata is like microformats to put data into a
    ... microdata doesn't do i18n
    ... all attributes around i18n get thrown away

    richard: reason why?

    chaals: they felt it would be easier
    ... quick hack version of
    ... trying to spec it out and how does it fit into space where
    ... multiple approaches exist
    ... have proposed that instead of resolving "lacking thing"
    ... then use RDFa
    ... better at handling i18n
    ... need to get schema.org et al to rebuild parsers to support
    ... instead of making microdata a competitor to rdfa
    ... suggest that for uses needing e.g. internationalisation
    then it is easy to convert your markup to RDFa which can handle
    proper i18n

    addison: what would you like us to do?

    chaals: okay for microdata to move forward? even though weak in

    richard: where does it say that now?

    chaals: point out rough parallels but don't spell out

    addison: are there partizans for microdata somewhere?

    chaals: schema founders proposed it first, but found it was bad
    for things
    ... lots of microdata out there
    ... webcommons micro crawl
    ... billions of triples, 2/3 of which are in microdata
    ... which is why a rec is being produced

    richard: schema.org balked at using microdata...

    chaals: no, still accept
    ... so we started out suggesting use microdata
    ... as we looked at it more carefully
    ... it's pretty simplistic and badly designed
    ... trying to map data into an RDF graph
    ... microdata can be used for that, but no fun
    ... RDFa or JSON-LD more fit for purpose
    ... RDFa close match

    <r12a> [21]https://w3c.github.io/microdata/#i18n-considerations

      [21] https://w3c.github.io/microdata/#i18n-considerations

    addison: this is buried, are you planning for a big "sticker"
    on the whole?
    ... saying we don't need to review?

    chaals: if you review it, you'll find it's highly inadequate
    ... would like to move forward, because useful for simple cases
    ... and when you "grow up" then here are better alternatives

    richard: would prefer if people used world-ready from the start

    addison: so do brief review, propose text for i18n section and

    chaals: happy, but want to do CR transition by end of month

    jan: I think it's wonderful, having hard time finding people to
    work on microdata

    richard: do in issue list so others can see

    chaals: use issues

    addison: if tagged with i18n tags then lists will mirror

HTML5 and Email input

    chaals: split into two issues
    ... left hand side and right hand side
    ... right side, we expect addresses to normalize to punycode,
    i.e. ascii
    ... we expect browsers to provide ability to input actual
    ... actually easier to see in real Unicode string
    ... say mixed russian and english
    ... also easier to type
    ... we didn't make any change to left hand side

    jck: on right hand side
    ... while principal you describe is correct, example terrible

    <chaals> [22]the left-hand-side issue

      [22] https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/845

    jck: if string with cyrillic is displayed in punycode
    ... it's a warning
    ... in general case exactly right
    ... left side is more problematic
    ... standard says "don't convert"
    ... use native character form in UTF-8
    ... don't allow non-ascii means don't use those addresses

    chaals: no browser currently accepts anything on left hand side
    anything but ascii
    ... won't put in CR if no implementation
    ... could put in FPWD of 5.3
    ... but getting 5.2 CR out

    jck: your recommendation is why browsers don't, e.g. a chicken
    and egg problem

    chaals: reason to change right hand side, to push browsers
    ... going back to russian example
    ... punycode as helpful warning is only useful if assume ascii
    email address
    ... not as powerful outside

    jck: conclusion is correct, and correct for another reason
    mentioned on thread
    ... because a couple of vendors have decided to implement local
    domains/domain names
    ... that are not ACE but are in native encoding

    <chaals> [23]the email issue for the right-hand-side

      [23] https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/538

    jck: advantages to browsers to keep in that form until late

    chaals: recognize the problem
    ... like HTML to push browsers to be helpful
    ... lot of pushback on parent security issue
    ... not well argued case?
    ... getting some support to move in this direction is
    surprisingly hard

    jck: would a letter from chinese government help?

    chaals: yes, especially in github

    jck: will try to get generated

    chaals: better if they proded someone to implement support

    addison: need to find a browser to do it?

    chaals: yes

    jck: arguably, what html should be doing is accepting what it
    gets and passing
    ... keep in utf-* until it interfaces with i.e. smtp
    ... html is trying to secondguess

    addison: utility is to page authors, not necessarily about

    chaals: don't think html got syntax right
    ... they were inventing stuff at that time
    ... comment for real serious use case and really want
    ... at least in a draft, possibly marked "at risk" when goes in
    ... saying we want is good, but need impleentation

    jck: concern about ascii-only problem that goes back to at
    least html2

    <scribe> ACTION: jck: stimulate non-ascii email advocates to
    provide feedback on EAI support in HTML [recorded in

      [24] http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action02

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-637 - Stimulate non-ascii email
    advocates to provide feedback on eai support in html [on John
    Klensin - due 2017-07-20].

    chaals: expect call for consensus on 5.2 next week
    ... also plan to start 5.3
    ... from the 5.2 doc so can ship next year
    ... do you anticpate an objection?

    addison: don't expect to object

    chaals: a formal statement would be helpful to me

    <scribe> ACTION: addison: provide a formal statement on i18n
    position on eai in html [recorded in

      [25] http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action03

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-638 - Provide a formal statement on
    i18n position on eai in html [on Addison Phillips - due

    chaals: easiest place to comment is on the issue
    ... can post a pointer there



      [26] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/projects/1


    <trackbot> action-622 -- Bert Bos to Forward poe/ordl comments
    on behalf of bert -- due 2017-06-08 -- OPEN


      [27] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/622


Info Share

    richard: unicode in xml was published today
    ... about an hour ago as a retired note
    ... so at bottom of our list of our TRs
    ... have a new github repo called string-metadata
    ... a hefty PR in there

    addison: will take up

    <chaals> [Note that HTML 5.2 includes input
    type="datetime-local" which is a floating time zone. I'll see
    if it makes sense to comment on the question]

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: addison: provide a formal statement on i18n
    position on eai in html [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: addison: update floating times q+a to address
    confusing section at end [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: jck: stimulate non-ascii email advocates to
    provide feedback on EAI support in HTML [recorded in

      [28] http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action03
      [29] http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action01
      [30] http://www.w3.org/2017/07/13-i18n-minutes.html#action02

Summary of Resolutions

    [End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 13 July 2017 16:17:48 UTC

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