- From: Ishii Koji <kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp>
- Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:39:05 -0400
- To: Stephen Zilles <szilles@adobe.com>, Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>, 'fantasai' <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>, "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>, 'WWW International' <www-international@w3.org>
The issue is that, in Mongolian, block progression does not match to the baseline. In that case, margin-before is left, but "before" value of ruby position should be right because it's based on baseline, not on block progression. I agree with fantasai that we should come up with a new pair of words that indicates directions against baseline. And I would vote "over/under" than "above/below", as the consistency with the underline makes sense to me. Regards, Koji Ishii -----Original Message----- From: www-style-request@w3.org [mailto:www-style-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Zilles Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 1:36 AM To: Richard Ishida; 'fantasai'; www-style@w3.org; 'WWW International' Subject: RE: [css3-ruby] [css3-text] Position values and before/after definitions in LR vertical writing mode I agree with Richard, especially since Ruby seems more common on vertical text. Steve Zilles > -----Original Message----- > From: www-international-request@w3.org [mailto:www-international- > request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida > Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 6:11 AM > To: 'fantasai'; www-style@w3.org; 'WWW International' > Subject: RE: [css3-ruby] [css3-text] Position values and before/after > definitions in LR vertical writing mode > > My first instinct is to question whether there is an issue here. Is it > a problem that ruby text labelled 'before' will appear to the left of > vertical mongolian text? Before and after refer to the position > relative to the block progression, in my mind. It's not about top of > line coincidence. > > I think that above and below are confusing, since they suggest > physical locations that are not appropriate for vertical text. > > (Note that the CSS Ruby module says " vertical-ideographic layout > mode, the ruby appears on the right side of the base" - mongolian isn't ideographic. > That could certainly be made clearer with a note.) > > RI > > ============ > Richard Ishida > Internationalization Lead > W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) > > http://www.w3.org/International/ > http://rishida.net/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: www-international-request@w3.org [mailto:www-international- > > request@w3.org] On Behalf Of fantasai > > Sent: 26 September 2010 15:15 > > To: www-style@w3.org; 'WWW International' > > Subject: [css3-ruby] [css3-text] Position values and before/after > definitions in > > LR vertical writing mode > > > > In top-to-bottom horizontal writing mode (English, most other > > scripts) > and > in > > right-to-left vertical writing mode (CJK), the "before" side and the > effective > > top of the line (wrt vertical alignment, glyph rotation, etc) coincide. > > > > See > > > http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/discuss/vertical-text/diagrams/te > xt- > flo > w- > > vectors-tb.png > > > http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/discuss/vertical-text/diagrams/te > xt- > flo > w- > > vectors-rl.png > > > > But in left-to-right vertical writing mode (Mongolian), the "before" > > side > and > > the effective top of the line do not coincide. See the illustration here: > > http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/discuss/vertical- > > text/diagrams/mongolian-vectors.jpg > > > > The "before" side of a line is to the left. The "top" (ascender) > > side of > a > line > > is to the right. > > > > If ruby-position and text-underline-position use "before" to mean > > "on the right side of the line" in vertical text, then we have a > > problem where "before" > > means > > different sides of an item depending on what property is involved. > > > > Either the definitions should be updated to depend on whether the > > block flow is right-to-left or left-to-right, or the keywords should > > be changed to something else to avoid a conflict in meaning. I > > suggest the latter, since I > suspect > that > > the current definitions are the ones that are typographically relevant. > > > > However, I haven't encountered any really good pairs of keywords. > > (Koji > and I > > are using "above" and "below" for now.) > > > > Richard, do you have any thoughts on this? > > > > ~fantasai > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3159 - Release Date: > > 09/25/10 > > 18:45:00 >
Received on Wednesday, 29 September 2010 18:38:09 UTC