RE: New change logs and RSS feeds available

Hi Mark,

We discussed this at length during the last GEO teleconference.  Please see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-geo/2004Nov/0015.html for a summary.

RI


> From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@jtcsv.com] 
> Sent: 09 November 2004 02:42
> To: Richard Ishida; www-international@w3.org; 'Martin Duerst'
> Subject: Re: New change logs and RSS feeds available
> 
> That still doesn't work. People get the wrong impression, and 
> then misinterpret everything else in light of it. If there 
> are two (or more) contending definitions, the right thing is 
> to present both of them.
> 
> Although I don't actually think the current definition is 
> even worth including. As I said, in a technical sense I find 
> it useless, and somewhat bizarre.
> 
> "Globalization describes the constantly expanding 
> connectivity and interdependence of the world's markets and 
> businesses."
> 
> It'd be like using:
> 
> "Localization describes the many-faceted perspectives 
> expressed by indigenous cultures around the world."
> 
> Not a useful technical definition.
> 
> ?Mark
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Ishida" <ishida@w3.org>
> To: "'Mark Davis'" <mark.davis@jtcsv.com>; 
> <www-international@w3.org>; "'Martin Duerst'" <duerst@w3.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 05:36
> Subject: RE: New change logs and RSS feeds available
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: www-international-request@w3.org
> > [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
> > Sent: 30 October 2004 03:03
> > To: Richard Ishida; www-international@w3.org; Martin Duerst
> > Subject: Re: New change logs and RSS feeds available
> >
> >
> > I agree. It is a bit like saying "People define these
> > concepts in slightly different ways. Here are some working
> > definitions for that you might find useful."
> >
> > Character: letter from A to Z.
> > ...
> >
> > If you don't expose that people use the word "character" in
> > *very* different ways, then you are doing all of your readers
> > a disservice.
> 
> 
> That is certainly something we can revise.  Thanks Martin for the
> suggestion.
> 
> 
> > Moreover, if this is also the "a version that
> > will hopefully be useful most of the time to read the stuff
> > we put out on Web internationalization" then I object much
> > more strongly. The article is written as though it is just
> > one person's opinion;
> 
> It was out for review for no short time, was discussed and 
> revised several
> times by the GEO group, and incorporates feedback from people 
> outside the
> group.
> 
> It's a difficult topic given that different people have 
> different views on
> the definition of these things.  I don't see a way to 
> accommodate everyone,
> but at the same time, I don't see that as a reason not to provide some
> explanation of the terms in a general sense.
> 
> Perhaps the problem here is that we haven't clearly enough defined our
> objective - that it still appears that we are trying to 
> 'define' the terms
> formally and absolutely.  We are not - and that's why we say 
> 'here is a
> *working* definition' - which means something to be going on 
> with.  Note
> also, that we wrote this article for people who are new to and do not
> understand the concepts involved in l10n/i18n/g11n.  Not for 
> people like you
> and me, Mark.  It is an introduction for content authors and 
> the like (who
> are our main audience in GEO). We obviously need to make that 
> more clear -
> any suggestions to change that wording are welcome.
> 
> 
> > not as if it is the definition that
> > will be used within all the W3C internationalization pages.
> > If it is the latter case, then it is even more important to
> > fix or clarify. I know that we use "globalized" software to mean
> >
> > >  >> A globalized software product is internationalized for  >>
> > > multiple languages simultaneously, using a single, uniform  >>
> > > character encoding in all of its internal processing.
> >
> > and not "Globalization describes the constantly expanding
> > connectivity and interdependence of the world's markets and
> > businesses." which I find pretty bizarre and useless. What is
> > globalized software according to this? Software that
> > constantly expands? That is interdependent?
> 
> Many of the people coming to this page will have mostly heard the word
> 'Globalization' in reference to riots and worldwide corporate 
> expansion,
> which is what that paragraph is related to.  The very next 
> paragraph goes on
> to say: "With regard to the Web..." to attempt an explanation 
> of how it is
> used in our techie world.
> 
> 
> 
> So what I would propose, given your comments is:
> 
> - that we more clearly define our audience and our intent - ie. not to
> provide an absolute, once and for all definition of these 
> terms, but to
> provide some useful, introductory pointers for newcomers
> 
> - that we more clearly say that there are widely divergent 
> uses of the terms
> out there - we could also link to a number of these in the 
> further reading
> section
> 
> - that we remove most instances of the word 'define', or at 
> least say that
> we are not defining these terms, but providing one view amongst many
> 
> Is that what you are looking for, Mark? I'm working hard to 
> translate your
> criticisms into proposals, but it's much harder to write this 
> thing than to
> find holes in it.
> 
> (I think Susan is already rueing the day she chose this topic 
> for her first
> FAQ.)
> 
> RI
> 
> 
> >
> > ?Mark
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martin Duerst" <duerst@w3.org>
> > To: "Richard Ishida" <ishida@w3.org>; <www-international@w3.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 16:37
> > Subject: RE: New change logs and RSS feeds available
> >
> >
> > >
> > > At 04:14 04/10/29, Richard Ishida wrote:
> > >  >
> > >  >Hi Mark,
> > >  >
> > >  >[restricting the copy list, since I now have 5 copies of
> > the mail you
> > just
> > >  >sent :-) ]
> > >  >
> > >  >The full quote from the introduction says:
> > >  >
> > >  >"People define these concepts in slightly different ways.
> > >
> > > Given the various definitions we have seen, it sounds to me like
> > > this is a heavy understatement.
> > >
> > > Regards,    Martin.
> > >
> > >  >Here are some
> > >  >working definitions for Web internationalization that you
> > might find
> > useful."
> > >  >
> > >  >I think this addresses your comment, doesn't it?  We
> > recognise that
> > people
> > >  >have differing definitions, but there would never be an
> > end, or much
> > >  >educational value, if we listed them all.  So we
> > acknowledge that there
> > are
> > >  >differences, and offer a version that will hopefully be
> > useful most of
> > the
> > >  >time to read the stuff we put out on Web internationalization.
> > >  >
> > >  >RI
> > >  >
> > >  >============
> > >  >Richard Ishida
> > >  >W3C
> > >  >
> > >  >contact info:
> > >  >http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> > >  >
> > >  >W3C Internationalization:
> > >  >http://www.w3.org/International/
> > >  >
> > >  >Publication blog:
> > >  >http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >> -----Original Message-----
> > >  >> From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@jtcsv.com]
> > >  >> Sent: 28 October 2004 16:28
> > >  >> To: Richard Ishida; 'GEO'; www-international@w3.org;
> > >  >> w3c-i18n-ig@w3.org
> > >  >> Subject: Re: New change logs and RSS feeds available
> > >  >>
> > >  >> Hmmm. I sure thought I did; but if you didn't get it then
> > >  >> it's as good as not sent. Here is a recap.
> > >  >>
> > >  >> The ordering of the definitions (localization,
> > >  >> internationalization, globalization is good, since each wants
> > >  >> to reference the previous), and the definition of
> > >  >> localization is reasonable.
> > >  >>
> > >  >> However, the definitions are stated in a way that would lead
> > >  >> one to believe that they match more or less what everyone
> > >  >> uses. It has one caveat at the start " Here are some working
> > >  >> definitions for Web internationalization that you might find
> > >  >> useful.", but doesn't point out that there are signficant
> > >  >> differences which will lead one into confusion. In
> > >  >> particular, what some people characterize as 'globalization'
> > >  >> others would characterize as 'internationalization'.
> > >  >>
> > >  >> For example, here are some definitions that differ
> > >  >> substantially from what is on that page:
> > >  >>
> > >  >> An internationalized software product is one that can be
> > >  >> localized without modification, by the addition or
> > >  >> replacement of data modules (called resources). Internally,
> > >  >> it is modularized, and accesses language-specific services
> > >  >> such as sorting through common interfaces.
> > >  >>
> > >  >> A globalized software product is internationalized for
> > >  >> multiple languages simultaneously, using a single, uniform
> > >  >> character encoding in all of its internal processing.
> > >  >>  * A globalized program can support data from any language
> > >  >> without any intervening installation process, and can freely
> > >  >> intermix data in those languages without risking data
> > >  >> corruption. A globalized product with a user interface also
> > >  >> has the capability to localize it to any desired language,
> > >  >> and to switch the user interface from any of the localized
> > >  >> languages to another one, without reinstalling. Think of this
> > >  >> as being able to plug in new languages at will.
> > >  >>
> > >  >> Others:
> > >  >>
> > >  >> internationalization
> > >  >> Definition: The process of designing and developing a
> > >  >> software product to function in multiple locales.
> > >  >> Definition: In software engineering, the process of producing
> > >  >> a product that is independent of any particular language,
> > >  >> script, culture, and coded character set.
> > >  >> Definition: The process of ensuring at a technical/design
> > >  >> level that a product can be easily localized.
> > >  >> Definition: The process of developing a program core whose
> > >  >> feature and code designs do not make assumptions on the basis
> > >  >> of a single language or locale and whose source code base
> > >  >> simplifies the creation of different language editions
> > of a program.
> > >  >>
> > >  >> globalization
> > >  >> Definition: The proper design and execution of systems,
> > >  >> software, services, and procedures so that one instance of
> > >  >> software, executing on a single server or end user machine,
> > >  >> can process multilingual data, and present data culturally
> > >  >> correctly in a multicultural environment such as the Internet.
> > >  >> Presentation of data includes (a) allowing each individual
> > >  >> user to select a language for the user interface and that
> > >  >> language may differ from the language of the data that is
> > >  >> being processed, and (b) presenting information, such as
> > >  >> dates and numbers, culturally correctly for each user even if
> > >  >> they are from different regions.
> > >  >>
> > >  >>
> > >  >> ?Mark
> > >  >>
> > >  >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >  >> From: "Richard Ishida" <ishida@w3.org>
> > >  >> To: "'Mark Davis'" <mark.davis@jtcsv.com>; "'GEO'"
> > >  >> <public-i18n-geo@w3.org>; <www-international@w3.org>
> > >  >> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 08:05
> > >  >> Subject: RE: New change logs and RSS feeds available
> > >  >>
> > >  >>
> > >  >> >
> > >  >> > Mark, did you send a note about that?  I don't seem to be
> > >  >> able to find
> > >  >> one.
> > >  >> >
> > >  >> > RI
> > >  >> >
> > >  >> > ============
> > >  >> > Richard Ishida
> > >  >> > W3C
> > >  >> >
> > >  >> > contact info:
> > >  >> > http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> > >  >> >
> > >  >> > W3C Internationalization:
> > >  >> > http://www.w3.org/International/
> > >  >> >
> > >  >> > Publication blog:
> > >  >> > http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> > >  >> >
> > >  >> >
> > >  >> >
> > >  >> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >  >> > > From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@jtcsv.com]
> > >  >> > > Sent: 27 October 2004 15:49
> > >  >> > > To: Richard Ishida; GEO; www-international@w3.org
> > >  >> > > Subject: Re: New change logs and RSS feeds available
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > > BTW, I still object to the definitions of
> > >  >> > > internationalization and globalization on
> > >  >> > > http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-i18n
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > > ?Mark
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >  >> > > From: "Richard Ishida" <ishida@w3.org>
> > >  >> > > To: "GEO" <public-i18n-geo@w3.org>;
> > <www-international@w3.org>
> > >  >> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 12:36
> > >  >> > > Subject: New change logs and RSS feeds available
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > > New change logs and RSS feeds available
> > >  >> > > 26 October 2004
> > >  >> > > Site improvements
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > > The new page 
> [http://www.w3.org/International/log/Overview]
> > >  >> > > lists updates to
> > >  >> > > resources and publications on the W3C 
> International site, as
> > >  >> > > well as news
> > >  >> > > items. Items are in chronological order, with the 
> newest at
> > >  >> > > the top. There
> > >  >> > > are also a number of additional lists generated
> > from this one
> > >  >> > > according to
> > >  >> > > categories assigned to news items. They currently include:
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > >     * resources: separates out items relating to new
> > >  >> resource pages or
> > >  >> > > publications, or updates to existing documents.
> > >  >> > >     * tests: separates out items relating to 
> developments to
> > >  >> > > the test suite.
> > >  >> > >     * translations: separates out items relating to
> > new or updated
> > >  >> > > translations of material on the Internationalization site.
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > > Each of the logs provided comes with a link to an RSS 2.0
> > >  >> > > feed, so that you
> > >  >> > > can be notified of new items. For example,
> > non-native English
> > >  >> > > speakers or
> > >  >> > > translators may wish to subscribe to the translations RSS
> > >  >> > > feed, to know when
> > >  >> > > new translations are produced.
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > > If you would like to see additional categories, please
> > >  >> contact Richard
> > >  >> > > Ishida at ishida @ w3.org.
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > > These pages are also linked from the home page at
> > >  >> > > http://www.w3.org/International/ and the format 
> of that page
> > >  >> > > has changed to
> > >  >> > > allow me to more easily post news (which means I'm much
> > >  >> more likely to
> > >  >> > > actually do so).
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > > ============
> > >  >> > > Richard Ishida
> > >  >> > > W3C
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > > contact info:
> > >  >> > > http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > > W3C Internationalization:
> > >  >> > > http://www.w3.org/International/
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > > Publication blog:
> > >  >> > > http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> > >
> > >  >> >
> > >  >> >
> > >  >> >
> > >  >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> 
>

Received on Tuesday, 9 November 2004 11:52:04 UTC