RE: New change logs and RSS feeds available

> -----Original Message-----
> From: www-international-request@w3.org 
> [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
> Sent: 30 October 2004 03:03
> To: Richard Ishida; www-international@w3.org; Martin Duerst
> Subject: Re: New change logs and RSS feeds available
> 
> 
> I agree. It is a bit like saying "People define these 
> concepts in slightly different ways. Here are some working 
> definitions for that you might find useful."
> 
> Character: letter from A to Z.
> ...
> 
> If you don't expose that people use the word "character" in 
> *very* different ways, then you are doing all of your readers 
> a disservice. 


That is certainly something we can revise.  Thanks Martin for the suggestion.


> Moreover, if this is also the "a version that 
> will hopefully be useful most of the time to read the stuff 
> we put out on Web internationalization" then I object much 
> more strongly. The article is written as though it is just 
> one person's opinion; 

It was out for review for no short time, was discussed and revised several times by the GEO group, and incorporates feedback from people outside the group.

It's a difficult topic given that different people have different views on the definition of these things.  I don't see a way to accommodate everyone, but at the same time, I don't see that as a reason not to provide some explanation of the terms in a general sense. 

Perhaps the problem here is that we haven't clearly enough defined our objective - that it still appears that we are trying to 'define' the terms formally and absolutely.  We are not - and that's why we say 'here is a *working* definition' - which means something to be going on with.  Note also, that we wrote this article for people who are new to and do not understand the concepts involved in l10n/i18n/g11n.  Not for people like you and me, Mark.  It is an introduction for content authors and the like (who are our main audience in GEO). We obviously need to make that more clear - any suggestions to change that wording are welcome.  


> not as if it is the definition that 
> will be used within all the W3C internationalization pages. 
> If it is the latter case, then it is even more important to 
> fix or clarify. I know that we use "globalized" software to mean
> 
> >  >> A globalized software product is internationalized for  >> 
> > multiple languages simultaneously, using a single, uniform  >> 
> > character encoding in all of its internal processing.
> 
> and not "Globalization describes the constantly expanding 
> connectivity and interdependence of the world's markets and 
> businesses." which I find pretty bizarre and useless. What is 
> globalized software according to this? Software that 
> constantly expands? That is interdependent?

Many of the people coming to this page will have mostly heard the word 'Globalization' in reference to riots and worldwide corporate expansion, which is what that paragraph is related to.  The very next paragraph goes on to say: "With regard to the Web..." to attempt an explanation of how it is used in our techie world.



So what I would propose, given your comments is:

- that we more clearly define our audience and our intent - ie. not to provide an absolute, once and for all definition of these terms, but to provide some useful, introductory pointers for newcomers

- that we more clearly say that there are widely divergent uses of the terms out there - we could also link to a number of these in the further reading section

- that we remove most instances of the word 'define', or at least say that we are not defining these terms, but providing one view amongst many

Is that what you are looking for, Mark? I'm working hard to translate your criticisms into proposals, but it's much harder to write this thing than to find holes in it.

(I think Susan is already rueing the day she chose this topic for her first FAQ.)

RI


> 
> ?Mark
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Duerst" <duerst@w3.org>
> To: "Richard Ishida" <ishida@w3.org>; <www-international@w3.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 16:37
> Subject: RE: New change logs and RSS feeds available
> 
> 
> >
> > At 04:14 04/10/29, Richard Ishida wrote:
> >  >
> >  >Hi Mark,
> >  >
> >  >[restricting the copy list, since I now have 5 copies of 
> the mail you
> just
> >  >sent :-) ]
> >  >
> >  >The full quote from the introduction says:
> >  >
> >  >"People define these concepts in slightly different ways.
> >
> > Given the various definitions we have seen, it sounds to me like
> > this is a heavy understatement.
> >
> > Regards,    Martin.
> >
> >  >Here are some
> >  >working definitions for Web internationalization that you 
> might find
> useful."
> >  >
> >  >I think this addresses your comment, doesn't it?  We 
> recognise that
> people
> >  >have differing definitions, but there would never be an 
> end, or much
> >  >educational value, if we listed them all.  So we 
> acknowledge that there
> are
> >  >differences, and offer a version that will hopefully be 
> useful most of
> the
> >  >time to read the stuff we put out on Web internationalization.
> >  >
> >  >RI
> >  >
> >  >============
> >  >Richard Ishida
> >  >W3C
> >  >
> >  >contact info:
> >  >http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> >  >
> >  >W3C Internationalization:
> >  >http://www.w3.org/International/
> >  >
> >  >Publication blog:
> >  >http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >> -----Original Message-----
> >  >> From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@jtcsv.com]
> >  >> Sent: 28 October 2004 16:28
> >  >> To: Richard Ishida; 'GEO'; www-international@w3.org;
> >  >> w3c-i18n-ig@w3.org
> >  >> Subject: Re: New change logs and RSS feeds available
> >  >>
> >  >> Hmmm. I sure thought I did; but if you didn't get it then
> >  >> it's as good as not sent. Here is a recap.
> >  >>
> >  >> The ordering of the definitions (localization,
> >  >> internationalization, globalization is good, since each wants
> >  >> to reference the previous), and the definition of
> >  >> localization is reasonable.
> >  >>
> >  >> However, the definitions are stated in a way that would lead
> >  >> one to believe that they match more or less what everyone
> >  >> uses. It has one caveat at the start " Here are some working
> >  >> definitions for Web internationalization that you might find
> >  >> useful.", but doesn't point out that there are signficant
> >  >> differences which will lead one into confusion. In
> >  >> particular, what some people characterize as 'globalization'
> >  >> others would characterize as 'internationalization'.
> >  >>
> >  >> For example, here are some definitions that differ
> >  >> substantially from what is on that page:
> >  >>
> >  >> An internationalized software product is one that can be
> >  >> localized without modification, by the addition or
> >  >> replacement of data modules (called resources). Internally,
> >  >> it is modularized, and accesses language-specific services
> >  >> such as sorting through common interfaces.
> >  >>
> >  >> A globalized software product is internationalized for
> >  >> multiple languages simultaneously, using a single, uniform
> >  >> character encoding in all of its internal processing.
> >  >>  * A globalized program can support data from any language
> >  >> without any intervening installation process, and can freely
> >  >> intermix data in those languages without risking data
> >  >> corruption. A globalized product with a user interface also
> >  >> has the capability to localize it to any desired language,
> >  >> and to switch the user interface from any of the localized
> >  >> languages to another one, without reinstalling. Think of this
> >  >> as being able to plug in new languages at will.
> >  >>
> >  >> Others:
> >  >>
> >  >> internationalization
> >  >> Definition: The process of designing and developing a
> >  >> software product to function in multiple locales.
> >  >> Definition: In software engineering, the process of producing
> >  >> a product that is independent of any particular language,
> >  >> script, culture, and coded character set.
> >  >> Definition: The process of ensuring at a technical/design
> >  >> level that a product can be easily localized.
> >  >> Definition: The process of developing a program core whose
> >  >> feature and code designs do not make assumptions on the basis
> >  >> of a single language or locale and whose source code base
> >  >> simplifies the creation of different language editions 
> of a program.
> >  >>
> >  >> globalization
> >  >> Definition: The proper design and execution of systems,
> >  >> software, services, and procedures so that one instance of
> >  >> software, executing on a single server or end user machine,
> >  >> can process multilingual data, and present data culturally
> >  >> correctly in a multicultural environment such as the Internet.
> >  >> Presentation of data includes (a) allowing each individual
> >  >> user to select a language for the user interface and that
> >  >> language may differ from the language of the data that is
> >  >> being processed, and (b) presenting information, such as
> >  >> dates and numbers, culturally correctly for each user even if
> >  >> they are from different regions.
> >  >>
> >  >>
> >  >> ?Mark
> >  >>
> >  >> ----- Original Message -----
> >  >> From: "Richard Ishida" <ishida@w3.org>
> >  >> To: "'Mark Davis'" <mark.davis@jtcsv.com>; "'GEO'"
> >  >> <public-i18n-geo@w3.org>; <www-international@w3.org>
> >  >> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 08:05
> >  >> Subject: RE: New change logs and RSS feeds available
> >  >>
> >  >>
> >  >> >
> >  >> > Mark, did you send a note about that?  I don't seem to be
> >  >> able to find
> >  >> one.
> >  >> >
> >  >> > RI
> >  >> >
> >  >> > ============
> >  >> > Richard Ishida
> >  >> > W3C
> >  >> >
> >  >> > contact info:
> >  >> > http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> >  >> >
> >  >> > W3C Internationalization:
> >  >> > http://www.w3.org/International/
> >  >> >
> >  >> > Publication blog:
> >  >> > http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> >  >> >
> >  >> >
> >  >> >
> >  >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >  >> > > From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@jtcsv.com]
> >  >> > > Sent: 27 October 2004 15:49
> >  >> > > To: Richard Ishida; GEO; www-international@w3.org
> >  >> > > Subject: Re: New change logs and RSS feeds available
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > > BTW, I still object to the definitions of
> >  >> > > internationalization and globalization on
> >  >> > > http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-i18n
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > > ?Mark
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> >  >> > > From: "Richard Ishida" <ishida@w3.org>
> >  >> > > To: "GEO" <public-i18n-geo@w3.org>; 
> <www-international@w3.org>
> >  >> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 12:36
> >  >> > > Subject: New change logs and RSS feeds available
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > > New change logs and RSS feeds available
> >  >> > > 26 October 2004
> >  >> > > Site improvements
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > > The new page [http://www.w3.org/International/log/Overview]
> >  >> > > lists updates to
> >  >> > > resources and publications on the W3C International site, as
> >  >> > > well as news
> >  >> > > items. Items are in chronological order, with the newest at
> >  >> > > the top. There
> >  >> > > are also a number of additional lists generated 
> from this one
> >  >> > > according to
> >  >> > > categories assigned to news items. They currently include:
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > >     * resources: separates out items relating to new
> >  >> resource pages or
> >  >> > > publications, or updates to existing documents.
> >  >> > >     * tests: separates out items relating to developments to
> >  >> > > the test suite.
> >  >> > >     * translations: separates out items relating to 
> new or updated
> >  >> > > translations of material on the Internationalization site.
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > > Each of the logs provided comes with a link to an RSS 2.0
> >  >> > > feed, so that you
> >  >> > > can be notified of new items. For example, 
> non-native English
> >  >> > > speakers or
> >  >> > > translators may wish to subscribe to the translations RSS
> >  >> > > feed, to know when
> >  >> > > new translations are produced.
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > > If you would like to see additional categories, please
> >  >> contact Richard
> >  >> > > Ishida at ishida @ w3.org.
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > > These pages are also linked from the home page at
> >  >> > > http://www.w3.org/International/ and the format of that page
> >  >> > > has changed to
> >  >> > > allow me to more easily post news (which means I'm much
> >  >> more likely to
> >  >> > > actually do so).
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > > ============
> >  >> > > Richard Ishida
> >  >> > > W3C
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > > contact info:
> >  >> > > http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > > W3C Internationalization:
> >  >> > > http://www.w3.org/International/
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > > Publication blog:
> >  >> > > http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > >
> >  >> > >
> >  >> >
> >  >> >
> >  >> >
> >  >>
> >
> >
> >
> 
>

Received on Monday, 1 November 2004 13:36:34 UTC