- From: Barry Caplan <bcaplan@i18n.com>
- Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 12:35:51 -0800
- To: David_Possin@i2.com, "Tex Texin" <texin@progress.com>
- Cc: cbrown@xnetinc.com, www-international@w3.org, www-international-request@w3.org
- Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20011107123324.01971df0@i18n.com>
At 01:16 PM 11/7/2001 -0600, David_Possin@i2.com wrote: I am **** this close*** to having a web site designed specifically for the topics and target audiences David mentioned. Some of you have already seen the beta - I could use a small handful of additional beta testers right now. Conveniently enough, the url will be www.i18n.com - go there for a link on how to sign up to help me test.... Barry >I would propose to open a discussion forum for locales in the yahoo.groups >like many other globalization people have done for other issues. >It will be tough keeping up to date with all the threads starting to pop >up, and all are extremely important to me and my job. Here are the issues >I have been trying to monitor and even reply to, adding my 2 cents: > * Locale definition - what is a locale? > * Locale identification - how many parameters are needed for a default > minimal locale description? > * Language identification - how can we identify languages that are not > included in the ISO 639 language group standard? (Current locale > identifiers use the 2-letter code, not the 3-letter code) > * Time zones - There is no standard, the tz database is as close as I > can get to a standard and it is not officially tied to a locale. This > only touches the need for a standard global time & date display. > * Currencies - Locales have only one currency tied to them, and > European locales still all have their national currencies implied. > * Euro - The big problem is not the display, but how to use it. The EC > has strict requirements on how to do currency triangulation with the > euro. We discovered that rounding problems popped up everywhere, > especially when using euro precision for calculation and had to display > the value in a currency without decimals. It would be a dream to have > this in ICU. > * Even when the euro becomes standard for a country, older > transactions will still have to be working with old currencies and/or > triangulation. We can't just convert them. > > * This only lists what has been mentioned in the last few days, there > is much more to be mentioned. I am trying to make PMs, Devs, QA, etc > globally aware here, but it is very hard to get official requirements > written up when there are no standards I can show as reference. > > * And my biggest proposal is to break the tie between language and > country when selecting a locale. > > * Dave > > > > * "Tex Texin" <texin@progress.com> > * Sent by: www-international-request@w3.org > > * 11/07/01 12:15 PM > * > * To: "Carl W. Brown" <cbrown@xnetinc.com> > * cc: www-international@w3.org > * Subject: Re: Euro mess (Was: valid locales ---> > was bilingual websites > > > > * Carl, > > * I hope the locales issue doesn't fan out into thousands of other > * threads, I won't be able to track them. > > * With respect to the Euro, there are several different issues. > > * a) Of course the Euro is important and having proper support for the > * Euro is required. > > * b) ISO 8859-15 does not seem to be getting much adoption, which is a > * good thing. Since 8859-15 and 8859-1 are incompatible, and if you adopt > * 8859-15 you likely still need to interchange text with users of 8859-1, > * (as they both support the same languages more or less), the world would > * be a very difficult if there was a lot of adoption of -15. > > * Anyone considering -15, should instead be considering Unicode. > > * And there are other alternatives if the only requirement is to support > * the Euro character and continue with a single byte codepage. > * Spelling out "Eur" or "Euro" is acceptable if there is space. And > * inventing mechanisms (e.g. escape sequences, or other specialized > * encodings) to print the Euro symbol are also possible. > > * c) The issue relative to locales, is there is no standard handling for > * the Euro. So my understanding is some software will change the currency > * of their European locales from native monetary units to Euro on Jan. 1. > * This may be useful for some, but will likely break many applications as > * well. > > * Others will create new locales specific to the Euro and/or specific to > * the old native currency. But which nomenclature you use when you are > * integrating software with different technologies and different locale > * naming conventions is a mystery to me. > > * So now if I say fr_fr I do not know which currency I get and it may > * change from Dec 31 2001 to Jan 1 2002. > * If I use an application that integrates technologies with different > * rules for locales, it could get very messy. > > * I presume reading monetary data created before 2002 may also be > * interpreted differently after 2002. > > * And minor upgrades of software may in fact invoke these locale changes, > * so what should be a minor patch may in fact be a large change to > * monetary handling. > > * d) I don't know why there isn't more of an outcry over this. Maybe > there > * is a reason the problems I cite in (c) won't happen that I don't > * understand. (I am by no means an expert on the subject. Most of my own > * software has explicit regional settings and doesn't follow the locale > * model.) It will be interesting to know what people find if they change > * their system clock to 2002 and do some application testing. > > * hth > * tex > > * "Carl W. Brown" wrote: > * > > * > Tex, > * > > * > I wonder why no one seems to care about the Euro? Are sites going to > * > continue to use iso-5589-1? How many browsers and systems support > * > iso-5589-15? > * > > * > Carl > * > > * > > -----Original Message----- > * > > From: www-international-request@w3.org > * > > [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Tex Texin > * > > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 7:42 PM > * > > To: Martin Duerst > * > > Cc: David_Possin@i2.com; Karl Ove Hufthammer; > www-international@w3.org > * > > Subject: Re: valid locales ---> was Re: bilingual websites > * > > > * > > > * > > Martin, > * > > > * > > You mean I can't just grouse and take potshots from the > sidelines? ;-) > * > > > * > > Well, I have not seen an alternative proposed and I don't have > one at > * > > the ready, but I don't mind taking a shot at improving the current > * > > situation. However, I am crunching now thru the end of the year, > so I > * > > will give it a go in the new year. > * > > In the meantime, I would be happy to collect both suggestions for > * > > requirements and suggestions for solutions on this list or > privately. > * > > > * > > The new year should be interesting, as the switch to the new Euro > * > > currency will demonstrate some of the chaos with locales. > * > > > * > > tex > * > > > * > > Martin Duerst wrote: > * > > > > * > > > Tex - Could you write up (short), or point to, any proposal > * > > > for how to do better than currently? > * > > > > * > > > Regards, Martin. > * > > > > * > > > At 14:57 01/10/31 -0500, Tex Texin wrote: > * > > > >David, > * > > > > > * > > > >FWIW, I thoroughly agree that locales as we currently define and > * > > > >implement them, do not work. > * > > > >As a naming convention it is inadequate, and when you select a > * > > name, you > * > > > >are not sure what behavior you will get. > * > > > > > * > > > >I have mentioned this before, and the response is always > "Yes, it's > * > > > >broken, but it is the best we have at the moment.". > * > > > > > * > > > >It is rather unfortunate that we have this methodology > therefore, and > * > > > >that it is accepted, since it won't be fixed as long as this > response > * > > > >continues. > * > > > > > * > > > >tex > * > > > > > * > > > >-- > * > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > * > > > >Tex Texin Director, International Business > * > > > >mailto:Texin@Progress.com Tel: +1-781-280-4271 > * > > > >the Progress Company Fax: +1-781-280-4655 > * > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > * > > > * > > -- > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > * > > Tex Texin Director, International Business > * > > mailto:Texin@Progress.com Tel: +1-781-280-4271 > * > > the Progress Company Fax: +1-781-280-4655 > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > * > > > > * -- > * ------------------------------------------------------------- > * Tex Texin Director, International Business > * mailto:Texin@Progress.com Tel: +1-781-280-4271 > * the Progress Company Fax: +1-781-280-4655 > * -------------------------------------------------------------
Received on Wednesday, 7 November 2001 15:37:11 UTC