- From: R. Douglas Ezell <rdouglas@iglou.com>
- Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 20:52:36 -0400
- To: Anne van Kesteren <fora@annevankesteren.nl>
- Cc: www-html-editor@w3.org
Anne van Kesteren wrote: >> After all, a validating XHTML 2.0 document could contain the entire >> contents of the w3c.org within a single li element. > > > What is specifically wrong with that? I know a site for example[1] > that has a FORM element embedded in a LI element. Some people may say > it is not very useful, but it is inventive and there is no other way > of doing this if the contetns of the LI element were restricted in any > way. > There is nothing wrong with that in the case of ol and li list items. In the case of a nl element, which would probably be implemented by visual user agents as a special widget like input and select elements, it will be easier to implement support for a more limited content model. Furthermore, a more limited content model for navigational list items would encourage authors to build more usable and accessible navigation lists. >> 2. Do you know of any work for specialized css selectors and rules >> for the nl element? There needs to be a way for designers to specify >> the direction and alignment of a nl element's pop-up menu on visual >> user agents, or the element will surely die. If they only drop down >> and to the left, designers will have no other option than to use >> scripting to modify this behavior, and all we will have gained are a >> few new elements with which to apply the standard DHTML menu creation >> techniques already in use. > > > I don't see the point you are trying to make here. Why are special CSS > selectors needed? A List Apart has for example tutorials on > vertical[2] and horizontal[3] dropdown menus. Perfectly structured > using some JS and CSS workarounds to work around limitations of > certain browsers. > > Since XHTML 2.0 was never meant to be backwards compatible you > probably won't need scripting at all in newer browsers. > > >> 3. Will the w3c actually place sufficient requirements on the >> behavior and other implementation details to help assure that >> navigation lists can be navigated with mice, keyboards, and other >> means? I dread that navigation lists will become anathema due to lack >> of adequate conformance requirements. > > > Why exactly? I think that the web author is responsible for this by > making sure his lists are using both ':hover' and ':focus' for example. > > >> 4. Will the w3c actually place sufficient requirements on the >> behavior and other implementation details to help assure that >> navigation lists do not become ugly and inflexible widgets? I dread >> that navigation lists will become anathema due to lack of adequate >> conformance requirements. > > > There are multiple sites that have implemented the solutions A List > Apart provided[2][3] successfully, the only thing XHTML 2.0 does is to > create a specific element for navigation menus instead of the UL > element everybody (who is aware of standards and such) is using now. > > This will make it much easier for browsers to skip the navigation and > head straight for the content. Search engines can distinquish between > a normal list of links and the site navigation. Et cetera. > > > [1]<http://mezzoblue.com/> > [2]<http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dropdowns/> > [3]<http://www.alistapart.com/articles/horizdropdowns/> > If navigation lists merely provide elements to make navigation in a page more semantic, that's fine. If navigation lists are also supposed to replace complex DHTML pop-up menus, then they require mechanisms that would provide at least some of the control over their behavior that authors now exert using DHTML. If navigation lists do not provide authors with a simpler and nearly as robust alternative to DHTML menus, I fail to see why an author would use them at all. I noticed you did not object to my main concern that the list items in navigation lists need a dedicated containing block equivalent to the actual drop-down-menu or sub-menu. Does that mean you think that navigation lists need this structure?
Received on Thursday, 5 August 2004 10:34:17 UTC