- From: R. Douglas Ezell <rdouglas@iglou.com>
- Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 10:48:42 -0400
- To: www-html-editor@w3.org
I have a few questions about navigation lists.
1. What is a navigation list supposed to be? I fail to comprehend how
the structure and examples presented could produce anything approaching
a pop-up menu element flexible enough for web page designers to use
instead of the usual DHTML pop-up menu.
A menu in the windows environment, if it were laid out in xhtml, would
have the following content model.
drop-down-menu (menu-item+) -no equivalent
menu-bar (menu+) -no equivalent
menu (menu-title,drop-down-menu) -equivalent to the nl
element (label, (li)+)
menu-title (PCDATA | Text-1) -equivalent to the label element
(PCDATA | Text)*
menu-item (PCDATA | Text-1)* -equivalent to the li element
(Flow)* (!!!!!!)
sub-menu (menu-item+) -no equivalent, and if there were an
equivalent for drop-down-menu no need for one.
example:
<menu-bar>
<menu>
<menu-title>PCDATA</menu-title>
<drop-down-menu>
<menu-item type="command">(PCDATA | Text-l)*</menu-item>
<menu-item type="check-box">(PCDATA | Text-l)*</menu-item>
<menu-item type="option-button">(PCDATA | Text-l)*</menu-item>
<menu-item type="sub-menu">(PCDATA | Text-l)*
<sub-menu>
<menu-item type="command">(PCDATA | Text-l)*</menu-item>
<menu-item type="check-box">(PCDATA | Text-l)*</menu-item>
<menu-item type="option-button">(PCDATA |
Text-l)*</menu-item>
<sub-menu>
</menu-item>
</drop-down-menu>
</menu>
...
</menu-bar>
see also:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnwue/html/ch08b.asp
While I do not advocate that XHTML 2.0 should have such a robust
structure, at the very least I would expect a containing block for a nl
element's list-items and a specialized navigation item with a much more
restricted content model than the li element. Since most websites that
utilize drop down menus generally use a menu-bar equivalent (whether a
horizontal bar or a vertical column), a menu-bar equivalent could also
be useful to improve the semantic meaning of dedicated navigational
elements in XHTML 2.0, rather than simply more abuse of the div element.
Without a drop-down-menu/sub-menu equivalent, there is no way to address
the actual pop-up menus directly to say, put a border around it or hide
all of it's contained navigation items at once. Without a more
restricted content model for a navigational list's items, it will be
incredibly difficult for implementors to implement navigation lists.
After all, a validating XHTML 2.0 document could contain the entire
contents of the w3c.org within a single li element.
Am I seeing things all wrong? I hope so. Please explain to me how a nl
element is supposed to work so I know whether or not these concerns are
valid.
As it stands now, I would either ignore the nl element entirely, or use
it like this:
<nl>
<label>PCDATA</label>
<li>
<div>PCDATA</div>
<div>PCDATA</div>
<div>
<nl>
<label>PCDATA</label>
<li>
<div>PCDATA</div>
<div>PCDATA</div>
<div>PCDATA</div>
</li>
</nl>
</div>
</li>
</nl>
Which is only a variation of the common practice of using ul elements
for navigation lists, only at least then the ul elements contained more
than one li element. A list element that never contains any more than
one list item somehow seems crude to me, but it is the only way I could
see the current nl element's structure meeting my needs for such an element.
Please either set me straight or validate and address my concerns on
this issue.
2. Do you know of any work for specialized css selectors and rules for
the nl element? There needs to be a way for designers to specify the
direction and alignment of a nl element's pop-up menu on visual user
agents, or the element will surely die. If they only drop down and to
the left, designers will have no other option than to use scripting to
modify this behavior, and all we will have gained are a few new elements
with which to apply the standard DHTML menu creation techniques already
in use.
3. Will the w3c actually place sufficient requirements on the behavior
and other implementation details to help assure that navigation lists
can be navigated with mice, keyboards, and other means? I dread that
navigation lists will become anathema due to lack of adequate
conformance requirements.
4. Will the w3c actually place sufficient requirements on the behavior
and other implementation details to help assure that navigation lists do
not become ugly and inflexible widgets? I dread that navigation lists
will become anathema due to lack of adequate conformance requirements.
5. When can we expect to see a sufficiently thought out and detailed
description of the behavior of a navigation list? The version found
here: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/xhtml2.zip was humorous at its very
best, and would have actually caused the entire nl element, including
it's label, to disapear whenever it lost focus. Again, I refer you to
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnwue/html/ch08b.asp
for some excellent guidlines for menu behavior. If only microsoft
followed it's own advice more often =). Perhaps a style rule could
enable alternate behaviors for navigation lists based on either UA, or
the basic hover behavior now so common on the web. In any case, I dread
that navigation lists will become anathema due to lack of adequate
conformance requirements.
Thank you for your time, and I look forward to any replies.
Received on Tuesday, 3 August 2004 10:51:03 UTC