- From: R. Douglas Ezell <rdouglas@iglou.com>
- Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 10:48:42 -0400
- To: www-html-editor@w3.org
I have a few questions about navigation lists. 1. What is a navigation list supposed to be? I fail to comprehend how the structure and examples presented could produce anything approaching a pop-up menu element flexible enough for web page designers to use instead of the usual DHTML pop-up menu. A menu in the windows environment, if it were laid out in xhtml, would have the following content model. drop-down-menu (menu-item+) -no equivalent menu-bar (menu+) -no equivalent menu (menu-title,drop-down-menu) -equivalent to the nl element (label, (li)+) menu-title (PCDATA | Text-1) -equivalent to the label element (PCDATA | Text)* menu-item (PCDATA | Text-1)* -equivalent to the li element (Flow)* (!!!!!!) sub-menu (menu-item+) -no equivalent, and if there were an equivalent for drop-down-menu no need for one. example: <menu-bar> <menu> <menu-title>PCDATA</menu-title> <drop-down-menu> <menu-item type="command">(PCDATA | Text-l)*</menu-item> <menu-item type="check-box">(PCDATA | Text-l)*</menu-item> <menu-item type="option-button">(PCDATA | Text-l)*</menu-item> <menu-item type="sub-menu">(PCDATA | Text-l)* <sub-menu> <menu-item type="command">(PCDATA | Text-l)*</menu-item> <menu-item type="check-box">(PCDATA | Text-l)*</menu-item> <menu-item type="option-button">(PCDATA | Text-l)*</menu-item> <sub-menu> </menu-item> </drop-down-menu> </menu> ... </menu-bar> see also: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnwue/html/ch08b.asp While I do not advocate that XHTML 2.0 should have such a robust structure, at the very least I would expect a containing block for a nl element's list-items and a specialized navigation item with a much more restricted content model than the li element. Since most websites that utilize drop down menus generally use a menu-bar equivalent (whether a horizontal bar or a vertical column), a menu-bar equivalent could also be useful to improve the semantic meaning of dedicated navigational elements in XHTML 2.0, rather than simply more abuse of the div element. Without a drop-down-menu/sub-menu equivalent, there is no way to address the actual pop-up menus directly to say, put a border around it or hide all of it's contained navigation items at once. Without a more restricted content model for a navigational list's items, it will be incredibly difficult for implementors to implement navigation lists. After all, a validating XHTML 2.0 document could contain the entire contents of the w3c.org within a single li element. Am I seeing things all wrong? I hope so. Please explain to me how a nl element is supposed to work so I know whether or not these concerns are valid. As it stands now, I would either ignore the nl element entirely, or use it like this: <nl> <label>PCDATA</label> <li> <div>PCDATA</div> <div>PCDATA</div> <div> <nl> <label>PCDATA</label> <li> <div>PCDATA</div> <div>PCDATA</div> <div>PCDATA</div> </li> </nl> </div> </li> </nl> Which is only a variation of the common practice of using ul elements for navigation lists, only at least then the ul elements contained more than one li element. A list element that never contains any more than one list item somehow seems crude to me, but it is the only way I could see the current nl element's structure meeting my needs for such an element. Please either set me straight or validate and address my concerns on this issue. 2. Do you know of any work for specialized css selectors and rules for the nl element? There needs to be a way for designers to specify the direction and alignment of a nl element's pop-up menu on visual user agents, or the element will surely die. If they only drop down and to the left, designers will have no other option than to use scripting to modify this behavior, and all we will have gained are a few new elements with which to apply the standard DHTML menu creation techniques already in use. 3. Will the w3c actually place sufficient requirements on the behavior and other implementation details to help assure that navigation lists can be navigated with mice, keyboards, and other means? I dread that navigation lists will become anathema due to lack of adequate conformance requirements. 4. Will the w3c actually place sufficient requirements on the behavior and other implementation details to help assure that navigation lists do not become ugly and inflexible widgets? I dread that navigation lists will become anathema due to lack of adequate conformance requirements. 5. When can we expect to see a sufficiently thought out and detailed description of the behavior of a navigation list? The version found here: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/xhtml2.zip was humorous at its very best, and would have actually caused the entire nl element, including it's label, to disapear whenever it lost focus. Again, I refer you to http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnwue/html/ch08b.asp for some excellent guidlines for menu behavior. If only microsoft followed it's own advice more often =). Perhaps a style rule could enable alternate behaviors for navigation lists based on either UA, or the basic hover behavior now so common on the web. In any case, I dread that navigation lists will become anathema due to lack of adequate conformance requirements. Thank you for your time, and I look forward to any replies.
Received on Tuesday, 3 August 2004 10:51:03 UTC