- From: Sean B. Palmer <sean@mysterylights.com>
- Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:26:24 +0100
- To: <www-html@w3.org>
I have great concerns about the future of XHTML, as I have had for a long time. The current public status of XHTML 2.0 is given in the HTML WG roadmap:- [[[ XHTML 2.0 is a next generation markup language. In this version, the functionality is expected to remain similar to (or a superset of) that of XHTML 1.1. However, the markup language may be altered semantically and syntactically to conform to the requirements of related XML standards such as XML Linking and XML Schema. The objective of these changes is to ensure that XHTML 2.0 can be readily supported by XML browsers that have no arcane knowledge of XHTML semantics such as linking, image maps, forms, etc. The development of XHTML 2.0 will likely require the development of new XHTML modules or revisions to existing XHTML modules. ]]] - http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml-roadmap/ For a start, this has been the "current" status of XHTML 2.0 over a year, as far as I can remember. Are we ever going to see materials pertaining to XHTML 2.0, or are the Working Group still actively engaged in debating the relative merits of XHTML 1.0/Basic/1.1/m12n? I thought those were recommendations now? The main problem, as the subject of this email hints at, is that the target market for future versions of XHTML 2.0 are rarely discussed by the W3C, and I think it would be a good idea to do so before it's "too late". If (as the roadmap infers) XHTML 2.0 is just a redrafting of XHTML to make it "pure XML", I think that would be a mistake. People are *not* going to author XHTML 2.0 if they want it to display on all browsers, because only a couple of the latest ones support XML technologies to any usable degree. Backwards compatability is everything, and Web users are generally very conservative (with a small "c"). We shall be seeing V4 browsers for a while longer, and browsers such as Lynx and IE3 which have no capacity for the XML range of technologies "semantics". If the HTML WG were to pursue this line for XHTML 2.0, I would be shocked. There is an alternative route that XHTML 2.0 could take, one that has been backed up with conversations that I've had with various people. It is clear from the development community that people are resorting to server side XML databases, and then transforming them using XSLT on the fly for output. Hopefully, this method of delivery can be intertwingled with the CC/PP and other profiling technologies that the W3C are developing. What this points to is that XHTML 2.0 should be a semantically rich language that can be transformed into other formats. Including XHTML 1.0 etc.! XHTML 2.0 should be something that will introduce pardigm shifts in the way that people think about User Interface technologies. Jason White put it excellently on the (public) wai-tech-comments list:- [[[ I recognize, of course, that HTML can hardly capture the richness and variability, both structurally and semantically, of the myriad document types which are made available via the web. All that can be achieved in the core of XHTML, is to provide markup conventions that are likely to be used frequently across a variety of document types, leaving it to the extension mechanism to permit the definition of more specific and semantically precise constructs as the occasion demands. Thus, one needs to be very careful in deciding which structures merit inclusion in the predefined XHTML 2.0 modules, and in determining which semantic distinctions genuinely need to be preserved, such that the structures under consideration can not be adequately represented by more generic elements. ]]] - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-tech-comments/2000Oct/0005 It is very difficult to develop an XML language that is accessible and interoperable, and doubly so if it is based upon XHTML 1.0/1.1/m12n., because they are so inherently awful, it's difficult to break out of the pattern. The XML Accessibility Guidelines [1] under development by the WAI Protocols and Formats Working Group contain an excellent set of axioms, and comments that can guide people when defining new XML languages such as XHTML 2.0. AFAICT, XHTML 1.0 is in violation of 11 guidelines:- 1.2 Define flexible associations, where a given kind of relationship can link to or from objects of varying types. (<img/> violates this) 2.1 Ensure all semantics are captured in markup in a repurposeable form. (<hr/> violates this, amongst others) 2.2 Separate presentation properties using stylesheet technology/styling mechanisms. (many elements violate this, including, <b>, <font>, <hr/>, <big>, <small>, etc.) 2.3 Use the standard XML linking and pointing mechanisms (XLink and XPointer). (<a> and <link> etc. violate this) 2.7 Provide a mechanism for identifying summary / abstract / title. (there is a <title> element and attribute, but nothing for summaries, or abstracts etc.) 2.10 Allow association of metadata with distinct elements and groups of elements. (XHTML 1.0 is very poor in this respect) 3.2 Define navigable structures that allow discrete, sequential, structured, and search navigation functionalities. (XHTML doesn't define navigational elements) 3.4 Use a device-independent interaction and events model / module. (XHTML 1.0 still allows "onclick" etc.) 4.3 Provide explicit human readable definitions for markup semantics. (see the definition of <address> in the HTML 4.01 specification... terrible!) 4.4 Use schema (in preference to DTD) to provide explicit documentation/annotation of element/attribute/etc semantics. 4.5 Provide semantic relationships to other schemata where appropriate and possible. (this one is, admittedly, difficult) That's a lot of accessibility problems that need to be addressed, and I can't help thinking that if (as the XHTML roadmap implies) XHTML 2.0 is built on top of XHTML 1.0 et al., these accessibility problems will be carried over. People want benefits, and new technologies have to have lots of benefits before people with give up their old ways. No matter what happens, XHTML 2.0 is going to have a slim target market. The aim is to make it as usable as possible. The only benefit that generic XML content languages offer over generic SGML content languages is their transformability using XSLT, and to a limited extent, styling using CSS (implementations of this are buggy). N.B. I have been personally experimenting with generic server side XML languages for a while now, and am currently developing a language called "XNote", a reference for which is available upon request. In summary, if XHTML 2.0 is a dismal failure (no matter what route is taken), then we should not be surprised. HTML has been a runaway success, but people are only interested in what they see as immediate benefits, and "accessibility and interoperability" aren't usually seen as being something that people can benefit from. Of course, we know better. If XHTML 2.0 were to be a very carefully built language, it should be possible to transform it into WML, XHTML 1.1, XHTML Basic, DocBook and so on; this is the aim I have with XNote. But if XHTML 2.0 is at least well built, it will serve as a good beacon for others designing generic XML content languages, and who knows, it might even be used a couple of times :-) [1] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/XML/gl-20010807 -- Kindest Regards, Sean B. Palmer @prefix : <http://webns.net/roughterms/> . :Sean :hasHomepage <http://purl.org/net/sbp/> .
Received on Sunday, 12 August 2001 10:27:07 UTC