RE: Select with open selection

>Let me say that having a select with two open selection was a real
situation in a project we had. If we had not been able to label
differently both open selection we would have had problems.
I don't think that the foorm author has to specify in advance a series
of blank entries for your presentation system to type in labels.
If you want to define your presentation of select with open selection
such that the user has a chance to annotate their entries with labels,
you can do that, but that doesn't need to be reflected in the markup of
the original form.
Leigh.
 

________________________________

From: Rafael Benito [mailto:rbenito@satec.es] 
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 1:47 PM
To: www-forms@w3.org; Klotz, Leigh
Subject: RV: Select with open selection


 


________________________________

	De: Rafael Benito [mailto:rbenito@satec.es] 
	Enviado el: jueves, 29 de junio de 2006 22:44
	Para: 'Klotz, Leigh'; 'www-forms@w3.org'
	Asunto: RE: Select with open selection
	
	
	 
	 
	 
	    Leigh,
	 
	    my comments between lines


________________________________

		De: Klotz, Leigh [mailto:Leigh.Klotz@xerox.com] 
		Enviado el: jueves, 29 de junio de 2006 22:11
		Para: Rafael Benito; www-forms@w3.org
		Asunto: RE: Select with open selection
		
		
		Rafael,
		
		With open selections, XForms doesn't define a way to
associate a label with the values. 
		 
	
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		This is just what I see it is a problem. Why you have
labels for enumerated values and you do not have them for open
selections?
		 
	
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		In http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms/slice8.html#ui-selectMany
<http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms/slice8.html#ui-selectMany>  it says
		"The form control should then allow free data entry, as
described in 8.1.2 The input Element
<http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms/slice8.html#ui-input> . The form control
may permit multiple values to be entered through free entry."
		I believe free data entry means entering the value
directly, and if the my:flavors is an xf:listItems type, then you can
enter a space-separated list of values into the typein area directly. 
		 
	
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		I do not think having the user enter white separated
values is a very elegant solution. The user DOES NOT HAVE to be aware of
what a list is in Xforms.
		 
	
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		Your example seems targeted towards allowing the user to
enter data into a shadow-DOM copy of the choices/items for the select,
and associating that with an specific label.
		Certainly you can present the select control with a
typein area, and that typein area would have a text node of some sort
associated with it in the display DOM, but that is an implementation
detail and shouldn't be part of the form markup.  This is what
"combo-boxes" do.
		 
		I was pointing out that for many use cases, the "Google
Suggest" or "Delicious Tags" type presentation is more useful, and its
semantics can be captured with open selection and itemset.
		 
		Leigh.
		 
	
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		These are presentation issues that seems to me
irrelevant to the point I raised. Let me say that having a select with
two open selection was a real situation in a project we had. If we had
not been able to label differently both open selection we would have had
problems.
		 
		Rafael
		 
________________________________

		From: Rafael Benito [mailto:rbenito@satec.es] 
		Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 1:00 PM
		To: Klotz, Leigh; www-forms@w3.org
		Subject: RE: Select with open selection
		
		
		 
		Leigh,
		 
		Apart from the name of the attribute mistyped, I still
see two problems with your comment:
		 
		    - you lose the ability to "label" the open
selection, which is useful in itself
		 
		    - I do not quite see how to handle the situation
with more than one open selection. The Recommendation requires
multiplicity.
		 
		regards,
		 
		Rafael


________________________________

			De: www-forms-request@w3.org
[mailto:www-forms-request@w3.org] En nombre de Klotz, Leigh
			Enviado el: jueves, 29 de junio de 2006 18:56
			Para: Rafael Benito; www-forms@w3.org
			Asunto: RE: Select with open selection
			
			
			Rafael,
			 
			I don't think the 1.0 Recommendation requires
additional markup in the choices or itemset to allow the presentation of
a direct user-input area.
			The only markup necessary is in the select
element itself: <select ref="my:flavors"
enumeration="open">...</select>.
			 
			I  do think that the attribute @enumeration
should give your implementation enough information to know to give the
user a choice between the choices/item and the direct user-input.  How
your presentation chooses to indicate that these are alternatives is up
to you.  One mechanism common on desktop/display/keyboard
implementations is the "combo-box".
			 
			As an alternative to "combo-boxes," in the past
couple of years, a more flexible presentation has been used in some web
sites: instead of using a pull-down menu, these sites use a type-in
field, and use the choices (or itemset) to provide auto-completion, yet
still allow alternate data to be entered. In HTML4, this requires
JavaScript, but in XForms, I believe that it is just the
@enumeration='open' attribute.
			 
			Please see my sample at 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2006May/0122.html
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2006May/0122.html>  and
think about using it to present your select example below (though with
enumeration="open" and no empty value item).
			 
			There would be additional markup required in the
form itself (events, another instance, etc.) if you wanted to have the
set of available choices depend on what had been typed in the field so
far and change incrementally, but for your example with its static set
of choices, just @enumeration='open' should be enough.
			 
			Thank you,
			Leighn.
			
			
________________________________

			From: www-forms-request@w3.org
[mailto:www-forms-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Rafael Benito
			Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 7:10 AM
			To: www-forms@w3.org
			Subject: Select with open selection
			
			
 	

			

			Hi,

			Xforms 1.0 Recommendation in Sections 8.1.10 and
8.1.11 states for selection="open" that "Free entry text is handled the
same as form control input 8.1.2 The input Element, possibly in
multiplicity."

			IMO, id does not state clearly what the actual
XML syntaxis is for this situation and should be clarified. In our
implementation we assume that an empty value element means that the
option is open, and then, treat it as an input element for presentation.

			 

			For example, <select ref="my:flavors">

			                        <label>Flavors</label>

			                            <choices>

			                                <item>

	
<label>Vanilla</label>

	
<value>v</value>

			                                </item> 

			                                <item>

	
<label>Strawberry</label>

	
<value>s</value>

			                                </item>

			                                <item> 

	
<label>Chocolate</label> 

	
<value>c</value> 

			                                </item>

			                                <item>

			                                    <label>Your
choice</label>

			                                    <value/>

			                                 </item>

			                            </choices>

			                     </select>

			would allow the user to enter "mango"

			Regards,

			Rafael Benito