See also: IRC log
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_2011/Agenda
<scribe> Scribe: dino
<scribe> Scribenick: dino
<tpod> Hello dino
is that all I have to do?
<tpod> Is this channel archived?
<anne> I am here
<fantasai> yes
<tpod> Publicly?
<fantasai> yes
<Ms2ger> Pain? :)
<smfr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011AprJun/0111.html
<hober> sylvaing: could you skype bradk & me in?
TabAtkins: There was a proposal a while ago about using SVG paint as CSS images.
<smfr> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/07/svg_paint_serve.html
TabAtkins: That's one proposal. I plan to add it into CSS Image Values 4
... The other way around is CSS into SVG paint servers
... e.g. <rect fill="linear-gradient(top blue)">
... but there are other useful things like the element() function
... question is where to specify using CSS images as paint servers?
<dbaron> tek Çelik, Vincent Hardy (Adobe), Erik Dahlstrom (Opera), Peter Linss (HP)
dino: what's the status of SVG specs
heycam: SVG 2e was just published. We are starting on new specs now.
<tpod> This is Tantek's iPod
heycam: it would be ok to specify this in image values spec
ed: many SVG implementations already support things like CSS3 colours anywhere you can use a <color> in svg even though that isn't supported in the SVG spec(s)
dino: it seems weird for a CSS specification to define SVG behaviour
heycam: we could do it in the SVG spec, it would take time
szilles: It would be ok for the SVG spec to do this, by specifically calling out the CSS image values spec as the normative behaviour.
tantek: The problem then is that the CSS image values spec now requires an SVG implementation to exit CR
dbaron: it's ok if there are two browser engines that implement it
TabAtkins: Mozilla already have an implementation
<TabAtkins_> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/07/svg_paint_serve.html
tantek: i am not formally opposing, but I think it is a potential serious issue.
TabAtkins: all the CSS image values would be SVG paint servers in userSpaceOnUse
heycam: uSoU percentages are relative to the viewport, not to the bounding box of the shape
<tantek> <aside> Ms2ger - I created #fx-chat for off-topic conversations. :) </aside>
TabAtkins: then the problem is that absolute lengths are not the same. You don't have a middle ground where percentages are relative to the bounding box and keeping units.
... I don't want to create a new unit space just for this.
heycam: are there other issues?
TabAtkins: I think coordinate spaces are the only issues.
<dbaron> Brian Birtles (Mozilla), Cameron McCormack (Mozilla), Tantek Çelik, Vincent Hardy (Adobe), Erik Dahlstrom (Opera), Peter Linss (HP)
dino: what CSS image values have percentages?
TabAtkins: only gradients
vhardy: How about the keywords like top left etc? Would that be to the SVG bounding box?
TabAtkins: we're dropping those temporarily. We'll have to deal with that when it comes back in. I might have to think about coordinate systems a little bit.
TabAtkins recaps yesterday's CSS discussion on gradients
<bradk> I thought we were unresolved on whether or not to do away with corner-to-corner gradients for now. No concensus.
bradk, i believe they were officially deferred from CSS IM 3
ed: SVG 1.1 doesn't include the stoke and markers in the bounding box. That might be important for gradients also.
TabAtkins: we may have to do some mode switching as you go from CSS to SVG.
<bradk> dino, Are you sure? I don't recall seeing a resolution for that. I thought it was "no consensus, back to the list".
TabAtkins: My plan will be to define how to use SVG paint servers in CSS, and draft something for the other way around. We can decide where to put the other way around.
bradk, no, I'm not sure.
<fantasai> There was no consensus on removing anything from Gradients
bradk, but Tab is speaking now as if it was a resolution :)
<fantasai> Well, Tab's wrong then. :)
<bradk> wouldn't be the first time. ;)
heycam: CSS may have the same issue with calculating bounding boxes
TabAtkins: yes, it's fairly well defined there. It defines the region of the canvas, such as content-box, border-box, etc.
RESOLUTION: Tab to add wording to CSS Image Values 4 about how SVG Paint Servers apply to CSS
... Tab to draft something about how CSS image values apply to SVG. This will live in the CSS Image values 4 spec for now (it may move later).
<stearns> bradk - you're right, it's not in the minutes. But I believe it should have been
<fantasai> Dino: We had a mailing list discussion about new image generators, kinda like your example of ppl using solid color with a slight noise
<fantasai> Dino: We're sending out massive images right now when we don't need to
<tantek> dino, TabAtkins, re: 2nd Resolution - suggest making that a non-normative section.
<fantasai> Dino: Add things for noise, checkboard, halo, etc. Not suggesting we add all those
<smfr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011AprJun/0025.html
<fantasai> Cam: How does Compositing work?
<fantasai> Dino; Becomes difficult in filters spec, bc sometimes you want the generated below, and other times above.
<fantasai> Dino: e.g. ppl do a halo effect where a flash moves across the text.
<fantasai> Dino: In that case you want it above.
<fantasai> Dino: Tab said it would be better to allow an image anywhere in CSS
<fantasai> Dino: e.g. say your background is blue with a faint noise texture above it
<cabanier> discussion: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011AprJun/0025.html
<fantasai> Cam: With bg now you can specify multiple things?
<fantasai> smfr: multiple images, yes
<bradk> sterns, dino, I'm not really opposed, if we are just talking about corner-to-corner, and not about removing keywords version altogether. But I'd rather just resolve remaining issues first. Anyhoo... not topic for now...
<fantasai> Dino: So, Tab and I came to an informal agreement that would be a good thing to do, but maybe we should have a resolution
<fantasai> Tab: Thing sin CSS spec that would move to being image values are :
<fantasai> Tab: flood ...
<fantasai> Tab: Unfortunately colors are not image types in CSS. Bg has special case of bg-color
TabAtkins: flood would map to image() (eg. image(blue))
<fantasai> Tab: But you can't have list-style-image: blue;
<fantasai> Tab: If we don't get that otherwise, the image() function lets you smuggle that in
TabAtkins: because image() has a fallback for a color
<fantasai> Tab: Because it allows a fallback color
TabAtkins: without an intrinsic size
... turbulence could be an image value
... the rest are filters so should stay as filters
dino: I propose asking for examples on the list of generated images.
RESOLUTION: The new image generator methods (eg. turbulence) to be added to CSS Image Values 4
smfr: I am concerned about the syntax overhead of specifying some complex filters. eg. a checkerboard has colour, repeat, offset.
TabAtkins: I agree. We'll have to balance that.
fantasai: Once SVG Paint Servers are allowed, it may be better to reference an library of SVG images as a CSS paint.
ed: The noise function in SVG is defined in C, but it doesn't scale to GPUs very well. I'd like to replace it with simplex noise.
vhardy: are you suggesting changing the algorithm as is?
ed: we can't remove what is there
vhardy: it was hard to get the algorithm right, we shouldn't change it.
... so which SVG filter primitives will become paint server?
TabAtkins: It won't be the full set.
dino: turbulence/noise is the only new one
tantek: We have some degree of interop with the pointer-events property. Mozilla + IE support it. WebKit supports "none" and "auto" for HTML.
... so it has been added to CSS 3 UI
<tantek> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/css/pointer-events
dbaron: I believe Mozilla support is similar to WebKit - none and auto
(for HTML content)
<smfr> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui/#pointer-events
tantek: I've added all the values to CSS (eg. visiblePainted). We need to make sure they are compatible with the way SVG defines it.
smfr: We've had requests to support visiblePainted in HTML for image content.
ed: SVG does ignore hit tests on fully alpha pixels in an image
<ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/interact.html#PointerEventsProperty (last paragraph, scroll down a bit)
<ed> "The value visiblePainted means that the raster image can receive events anywhere within the bounds of the image if any pixel from the raster image which is under the pointer is not fully transparent, with the additional requirement that the ‘visibility’ property is set to visible."
dbaron: we need translations of the purely SVG names. define what "stroke" means in HTML.
tantek: I suppose reducing the values now to "auto" and "none", then put wording pointing people at a future spec for the other values (eg. the SVG ones)
heycam: would the CSS spec define what shapes, etc are for the SVG case? or should that be in the SVG spec?
tantek: I'll redefine "auto" slightly. It currently references visiblePainted, but we're moving that out.
... I'll normatively reference the SVG spec for SVG content.
<bradk> shouldn't there be a value for 'pointer-events' to determine clickability based on an opacity value?
heycam: we should define a term in the SVG spec like "hit testable area" and have that as a reference target
tantek: we can do that for a future spec, but we should move forward with this now - ie. not wait for a future SVG spec
vhardy: what do you do for a stylesheet targeting both languages? SVG will allow more values.
tantek: this is an old problem. some specifications allow different values.
dbaron: i suspect that the current implementations accept all the values that SVG supports, and treats the common value the same across both languages.
tantek: then maybe the specification should define "auto" and "none", then say that everything else is defined in the host language.
... this does mean that any new functionality will need new values
TabAtkins: hopefully people are not using visiblePainted and expecting it to behave as "auto".
... so we might be able to redefine visiblePainted
... put the values in the spec and say that people should not use them outside of SVG.
TabAtkins gave an example that the scribe missed
tantek: that example is deprecated values. this is different.
<vhardy> Example of precedent where SVG only uses a subset of the existing value set: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/painting.html#DisplayProperty
szilles: the wording should be "these values only have defined meaning in SVG"
RESOLUTION: List all the current values for pointer events, everything other than "none" is treated as "auto" unless applied to SVG content
... Add an author conformance criteria saying that they should not use the other values outside of SVG
<tantek> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-4
tantek: Issue 4 is related to the computed value
<tantek> @namespace svg "http://www.w3.org/2000/svg";
<tantek> svg|svg { pointer-events: none }
<tantek> svg|svg>* { pointer-events: visiblePainted }
heycam: i don't think any content will be relying on seeing a computedStyle of 'visiblePainted'.
... so it would be ok to return 'auto' for SVG content
tantek: the style rule was an attempt to address the difference in implementations.
ed: I think it would be ok to make SVG content have 'auto' as the initial value
<tantek> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-5
vhardy: If 'auto' is added to CSS3 UI, we'll need to update/add the SVG specification.
heycam: yes
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to update the SVG specification, adding 'auto' the pointer-events specification. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-35 - Update the SVG specification, adding 'auto' the pointer-events specification. [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-08-02].
<ChrisL> which svg specification is that,Cameron?
tantek: moving on to issue 5
<heycam> ChrisL, that'd be SVG 2
<heycam> ACTION-35: To SVG 2
<trackbot> ACTION-35 Update the SVG specification, adding 'auto' the pointer-events specification. notes added
tantek: I believe the style rule I gave above gives the SVG behaviour to non-graphical elements.
discussion about what elements in SVG should get pointer events
<tantek> svg|svg { pointer-events: visiblePainted }
dbaron: the SVG element doesn't paint anything, then it should be ok to have pointer-events applying to everything
heycam: also <g>
... I think it should be auto everywhere
tantek: SVG doesn't specify 'auto'. we're trying to ship an interoperable spec today.
vhardy: the property value is saying what is generating events, not where you can place a listener.
tantek: are SVG ok with accepting this change?
Some discussion missed by scribe
<ChrisL> wasn't it mentioned earlier thatsome html browsers accept visiblePainted?
<ChrisL> if the goal is interop now, that it the most interoperable value
heycam: SVG2 will be a while coming. We'll change the value there.
RESOLUTION: Drop the SVG UA stylesheet rules. Add a note saying that SVG will be adding 'auto' as the default value in a future spec.
<smfr> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-6
tantek: this makes Issue 6 a non-issue now
sylvaing: Question - is there a restriction on what elements the pointer-events apply to?
tantek: do you have an example in markup?
sylvaing: we're worried about click hijacking
heycam: using elementFromPoint
smfr: This is a valid point to bring up.
sylvaing: MS is likely to add some restrictions on passing events down to iframes, or whatever.
tantek: doesn't SVG define this with <foreignObject> ?
shepazu: spec doesn't say anything
tantek: what about implementations?
No one responds to suggest that SVG implementations are doing anything to avoid click jacking at the moment
sylvaing: It's likely that we will not propagate an event into an iframe
tantek: There are two problems: what should implementations do? and now what should the specs say?
<tantek> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui/#pointer-events0
tantek: I think the specification does have enough room to allow implementations to not propagate events across origin if necessary.
tantek reads current CSS 3 UI spec language
(can someone paste it in or link?)
dbaron: i think that's more likely a bug in the spec rather than a loose reading. It should be defined.
anne: agree. elementFromPoint only returns the iframe.
----- break -----
<vhardy> ScribeNick: vhardy
ed: Let's continue on the CSS UI issues.
<tantek> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui/#pointer-events0
tantek: we were discussing the click jacking scenario with pointer-events: none.
... sylvaing has a demo
... the strawman proposal is to say that the UA must keep track of the fact that the event fell through something that had 'pointer-events: none' and then check for cross-origin.
dbaron: you have the same issue with opacity.
... the better protection is for web site to not allow being framed.
sylvaing shows a demo where a frame hides Amazon.com and a 'play' button passes through and activates an 'add to cart button' without the user's knownledge.
sylvaing: this is not a new issue, but it should be addressed.
tantek: the spec. as is, nothing says nothing about where the event goes if the element does not handle it. It does not require anything specific about z-order or children lower in the rendering stack.
shepazu: I think the spec. should be more specific.
dbaron: pointer-event's intent is to filter the targets of events and to let the evet target something lower in z order.
shepazu illustrates the purpose of pointer-events: none.
anne: even if we want to be vague for cross origin, we need to be specific for same origin.
tantek: there is a missing reference here to the definition of hit testing.
anne: it should be in the pointer-events specification.
tantek: I do not agree.
<dbaron> http://www.webkit.org/specs/PointerEventsProperty.html
tantek: does HTML5 define hit testing?
anne: no
<anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0407.html
smfr: I thought it was defined.
<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/intro.html#TermHitTesting
anne: I think we had agreed that the definition of hit testing would be in CSS 3 UI.
<anne> http://people.opera.com/lstorset/TR/pointer-events/ED-pointer-events-20100820.html
tantek: this is just about the property.
... there is nothign about geometry, z-index, etc...
<anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0287.html
anne: the first reference I pasted has a portion that needs to be part of the spec.
<anne> hixie's notes on hit testing ^^
<tantek> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0287.html
shepazu: The SVG 1.1 2nd edition has a definition of hit testing, which is new to SVG (was not in previous version).
<bradk> No skype... is Sylvain out??
anne: this was never in HTML5.
... this should be in CSS.
tantek: or DOM Events?
several: CSS.
shepazu: should be in CSS.
tantek: should be split in CSS (geometry and opacity aspects) and then the definition of events should be in DOM Events.
anne: sure.
tantek: this is essentially what Hixie's note is doing.
smfr: hit testing is the reverse of painting (order-wise). Where we talk about painting order, we could talk about hit testing.
tantek: Hixie's note talks about painting order too.
<bradk> standing by...
tantek: are you saying that Hixie's note should be integrated in the spec.?
anne: yes.
tantek: hit testing should be defined in CSS, in CSS UI.
anne: pointer-events is just about hit testing.
(discussion about Hixie's proposal and comments that were made).
shepazu: also needs to take into account SVG for hit-testing, so that the definition is not just HTML.
dbaron: it is the opposite of z-order, so it should be fairly easy.
tantek: there are only a few exception cases with elements like body, but the rest should apply for SVG.
shepazu: we should coordinate on this.
tantek: z-index and z-order should be in one place and hit testing should reference that.
heycam: there are some SVG specificities that are different from HTML.
<ChrisL> svg has a painting order, which is also relevant (as z-index is for html/css)
anne: it would be nice if the hit testing algorithm was generic, with possible arguments (like 'stop at the iframe')
shepazu: I think we need to do some more work and re-coordinate on this later.
<smfr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0407.html
<scribe> ACTION: Tantek to integrate Hixie's proposal on hit testing and define hit-testing in CSS 3 UI and coordinate with Doug for harmonizing with SVG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Tantek
<tantek> hello
<scribe> ACTION: tantek to integrate Hixie's proposal on hit testing and define hit-testing in CSS 3 UI and coordinate with Doug for harmonizing with SVG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - tantek
<ChrisL> trackbot, status
RESOLUTION: tantek to integrate Hixie's proposal on hit testing and define hit-testing in CSS 3 UI and coordinate with Doug for harmonizing with SVG.
<scribe> ACTION: shepazu to integrate Hixie's proposal on hit testing and define hit-testing in CSS 3 UI and coordinate with Doug for harmonizing with SVG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Integrate Hixie's proposal on hit testing and define hit-testing in CSS 3 UI and coordinate with Doug for harmonizing with SVG. [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-08-02].
tantek: this was the issue of security, partially. What do we need to say about the scenario sylvaing presented.
shepazu: I liked the proposal with a dirty flag for something that passed through because of pointer-events: none and then not propagate to cross-origin.
tantek: the alternate proposal is to make a note that sites that do not want to have this happen should not allow being framed.
dbaron: we should also talk to some people in the web security field.
... some people at Mozilla would know about this.
<scribe> ACTION: shepazu and dbaron to reach out to web security experts and get an opinion on whether or not we should address security concerns on the hit testing algorithm. Coordinate with Tantek for the CSS 3 UI spec. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-37 - And dbaron to reach out to web security experts and get an opinion on whether or not we should address security concerns on the hit testing algorithm. Coordinate with Tantek for the CSS 3 UI spec. [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-08-02].
<shepazu> ACTION: dbaron to reach out to web security experts and get an opinion on whether or not we should address security concerns on the hit testing algorithm. Coordinate with Tantek for the CSS 3 UI spec. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - dbaron
ed: is there anything more that we need to discuss here?
shepazu: want to talk about transparency.
... proposal for alpha-levels.
... this came up from Zynga.
<dbaron> trackbot, is user david David Baron or some other David?
<trackbot> Sorry, dbaron, I don't understand 'trackbot, is user david David Baron or some other David?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
<ChrisL> action-1?
<trackbot> ACTION-1 -- Doug Schepers to create an FX repository -- due 2010-03-18 -- CLOSED
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/track/actions/1
shepazu: they do most of their HTML5 games with PNGs that have transparency and they need to do their own hit testing on the PNGs.
<ChrisL> users list at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/track/users
<ChrisL> david id david singer
shepazu: they would like to say that if a pixel has a certain level of transparency, then the hist testing is not positive.
... if opacity is less than x, then pass the even through
tantek: do they want the hit testing mask?
shepazu: they do not want to do their own hit testing.
tantek: there are cases where there is a hole and you still want to hit positive for the hole.
smfr: I have not heard Zynga asking for a separate image.
tantek: where the opacity may address some of the use cases, it seems that a separate mask would cover more use cases.
vhardy: and the image's opacity could be the default mask.
tantek: yes.
shepazu: this also solves some issues for SVG.
... this is an issue we need to look into.
smfr: it is not obvious that this needs to go into pointer-events.
shepazu: right.
... Paul Bakaus for Zynga mentioned he would rather not maitain two images.
smfr: I think the threshold for pointer-events is simple enough that we could put it into pointer-events.
... a separate image is more complex and should be separate.
heycam: with filters, we started to talk about pointer-events issues. It would be nice if we could resolve all these problems with a single solution.
<tantek> Hixie's notes http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0287.html refer to full transparency as allowing events to pass through
tantek: currently, in Hixie's proposal, onlyt 100% translucent pixels let the event go through.
We are talking about adding a threshold instead.
<tantek> so we're talking about increasing that threshold from opa city:0 to opacity:x where 0≤x≤1
dino: sometimes, you want the hit testing area to be larger than the element itself.
tab: sometimes, you want the letters to be selected to have a larger selection area. It would be easier if there were hit testing controls.
shepazu: Alex Danilo said this is too difficult to implement because you might have to get the graphics back from the GPU.
szilles: so you may have to precompute things.
tantek: the mask solves that problem.
<heycam> vhardy: having a mask, isn't that equivalent to just having the texture around?
<heycam> vhardy: if you're keeping some data for hit testing, that's the same as keeping on the gpu and in memory
<heycam> smfr: i think it might be expensive at run time
<heycam> smfr: doable, but it may be slow
tantek: if you go back to Paul's usecase, he is keeping his own mask in JS.
... that means the shapes are their masks.
<shepazu> Alex's critique: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Apr/0052.html
tantek: so they have implemented masks as a work around. We could provide masks to resolve their issue.
<shepazu> Paul,'s email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Apr/0050.html
heycam: the email does not hint at their implementation method.
shepazu: quoting the email..
heycam: it seems to be a good shorthand.
tantek: if doing things in canvas and JS works, then shouldn't it be feasible in implementations?
tab/shepazu: the point Alex Danillo made is valid.
<ChrisL> there are some video codecs on gpu like for mpeg etc. those might be usablefor jpeg decoding
<ChrisL> but in general the bandwidth of he back channel from gpu to cpu is not very good
smfr: if you have filters that are implemented on the GPU, then you need to do read-back from the GPU and that is expensive.
tab: box shadows do not impact hit testing.
... round-borders affect hit testing.
... border-image does not affect hit testing.
<ChrisL> bordser is a classic case for needing more values like visibleBorder for hit testing
tab: I would be ok to say that things may slow down if you do hit testing on a filtered image, for example.
discussion on various filter effects that may affect hit testing.
dino: we all realize that a threshold is not enough because we need a mask image in many cases. Can it be integrated with the pointer-events property.
tantek: we are talking about CSS UI 4 right?
several: yes.
shepazu: I think the threshold is enough for most cases.
smfr: the GPU efficiency is an issue to consider.
tantek: I would like to add this to CSS UI 4.
<dino> ACTION: Dean to draft a proposal for specifying hit testing regions or masks for CSS 4 UI [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-38 - Draft a proposal for specifying hit testing regions or masks for CSS 4 UI [on Dean Jackson - due 2011-08-02].
<scribe> ACTION: tantek to specify how opacity:0 impact hit testing. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - tantek
<bradk> opacity:0.001 should not be different from opacity:0 WRT hit testing
<tantek> Issue 9: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-9
<smfr> bradk: opacity already has discontinuitues: 0.9999 creates stacking context, 1 does not
<ChrisL> bradk, hit testing is like pregnancy. it is on/off not a sliding scale
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to propose that opacity of a pixel does not affect its pointer-event behavior for CSS 3 UI. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-39 - Propose that opacity of a pixel does not affect its pointer-event behavior for CSS 3 UI. [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-08-02].
ACTION-39: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-9
<trackbot> ACTION-39 Propose that opacity of a pixel does not affect its pointer-event behavior for CSS 3 UI. notes added
<shepazu> ACTION: shepazu to write up proposal for opacity threshold for pointer-events for CSS 4 UI [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-40 - Write up proposal for opacity threshold for pointer-events for CSS 4 UI [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-08-02].
tantek: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-10
... I think we are ducking this.
ed: the issue was mostly for SVG.
(discussion on filter effects and masks applying to HTML in SVG, through foreignObject)
heycam: we would need to say that the mask actually impact hit testing.
... and clip-path as well.
vhardy: this should go into the hit testing section.
<tantek> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/clip-path
<tantek> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/mask
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to propose wording for CSS 3 UI about how masks and clip-paths impact hit-testing. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-41 - Propose wording for CSS 3 UI about how masks and clip-paths impact hit-testing. [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-08-02].
<tantek> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/-webkit-mask-box-image
<shepazu> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/06/applying_svg_ef.html
<birtles> https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Applying_SVG_effects_to_HTML_content
tantek: we need a definition of these properties in a CSS spec.
ed; we could put clipping and masking in the FXTF filter spec.
<ed> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/filters/publish/Filters.html
<scribe> ACTION: ed to move clip-path and masks to the FX Filter specification draft. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-42 - Move clip-path and masks to the FX Filter specification draft. [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-08-02].
tantek: I have no more issue on CSS 3 UI that requires CSS/SVG coordination. I have gone through the issues I had.
ed: Next topic: filter effects.
<dino> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_2011/Agenda/FilterEffects
dino: we have a lot of issues.
... first issue is to come up with a name other than SVG filters.
... there are pure css filters and then markup filters.
chris: advanced filers? markup filters?
dino: the whole spec. is CSS, there is a part that uses markup for advanced filters.
(discussion on 'advanced filters' v.s. 'markup filters')
shepazu: I think markup filters is better
smfr: declarative filters?
<ChrisL> the filters previously known as SVG
<ChrisL> custom filters
dino: shorthand syntax and long-hand syntax?
tantek: is this a CSS module?
<ChrisL> its a jointly developed module
dino: not currently. But it should be?
... it should just be "Filters"
tantek: I think we should call them 'CSS 3 Filters'
fantasai: "CSS Filters"
<ChrisL> can we please drop the 'levels' stuff
shepazu: the spec. defines markup for filters.
fantasai: we should call them "W3C filters"
chrisL: agreed.
<Ms2ger> HTML5 Filters?
shepazu: markup filters is the most descriptive.
<fantasai> XFilters :)
<ChrisL> people are gradually being used to pointing to other media from css. images, svg, etc
dino: the options we have heard:
... element based filters
... shorhand/longhand filters
... markup filters
... XML Filters
<ChrisL> w3c filters
dino: W3C Filters
... XFilters
<ChrisL> shorthand has an existing meaning in css,be careful to avoid confusion there
<ChrisL> extesible filters
<ChrisL> custom filters
<ed> canned filters
<scribe> ACTION: Dino to make a naming proposal to distinguish between CSS and markup filters. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Dino
<scribe> ACTION: dean to make a naming proposal to distinguish between CSS and markup filters. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-43 - Make a naming proposal to distinguish between CSS and markup filters. [on Dean Jackson - due 2011-08-02].
<tantek> ACTION: RRSAgent - learn how to reference people by URL not just alias. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - RRSAgent
<ChrisL> I actually asked on sysreq about adding people to fx tracker , but no response
<tantek> ACTION: trackbot - learn how to reference people by URL not just alias. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - trackbot
dino: next issue is to have a custom filter using a particular language.
<smfr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011AprJun/0109.html
<ed> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/filters/publish/Filters.html#feCustomElement
patrickdengler: there are lots of issues with custom filters (security). In IE, we did not see any use of the custom filters we provided.
dino: what are the pros and cons?
... cons: security, not used often.
... Adobe has a public repository of pixel bender filters and there are 20+ filters there.
... pros: it is great for us as spec. developers because we do not have to define every effect.
... cons: we need to define a filter.
<tantek> ed - is there a URL for today's agenda? I added the CSS3-UI coordination to here: http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/seattle-2011#tuesday but don't see any other items (nor links to agendas in other locations)
dino: sometimes, people also want to protect their shader code.
<ed> patrick: inkscape has hundreds of defined filter effects that only use the existing svg filter functionality
<tantek> ed - nm. thanks to smfr for http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_2011/Agenda
<ChrisL> orcuda
dino: on the language approach, if we accept WebGL, there is a shading language specified there. GLSL is not always the right solution. HLSL is not either. Sometimes, solutions like pixel bender or Core Image filters are better. I think Silverlight has something similar to HLSL.
... seems like there is a lot of cons.
<smfr> ChrisL: or CUDA?
vhardy: i think there are very nice effects that would could have with custom fitlers. We can come back later with more arguments.
chrisl: if there was a DOM interface for custom filters, that may be easier.
dino: one use case where Apple uses a custom filter is for video output to TV, or custom color correction.
heycam: if we had custom filters, what if you do not have hardware accel.
vhardy: then there is a sw path.
<scribe> ACTION: vhardy to come back with more arguments on custom filters and make a proposal. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - vhardy
<heycam> trackbot, status?
<scribe> ACTION: vincent to come back with more arguments on custom filters and make a proposal. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - vincent
dino: next is pointer-events on filter regions.
<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011AprJun/0109.html
ed: we found that having filters impact hit testing is costly.
smfr: and there are cases like blur where the hit becomes an area.
dino: is that like shadows? Or should we deal with it with masking as well?
<heycam> vhardy: in svg if oyu have text on a path, with hit testing and text selection, that kind of "distortion" works
<heycam> vhardy: it doesn't if you go through a filter pipeline, pixels gets shifted around
<heycam> ... you're still operating on the original geometry you had
<heycam> dino: you want 2 things. one is controlling whether hit testing happens on the output, and possibly something about whether you should map back to the input pixel from the output pixel
<heycam> fantasai: how would you determine that for a blur?
<heycam> dino: there are multiple pixels
<heycam> vhardy: it's not a 1-to-1 mapping
<heycam> ChrisL: if you have a filter that displaces things, or if the visual result is quite different from the original, ...
<heycam> fantasai: why not use transforms for shifting content?
<heycam> vhardy: with filters you could use your source multiple times
<heycam> dino: I think there's a difference between hit testing, have I clicked on this element, and text selection, which is where you need to select a character
<heycam> dino: the text might be in a different spot
<heycam> vhardy: if you use SourceGraphic and feOffset, you could have a rectangle and make it a grid of four rectangles
<heycam> ... and that's the visual rendering
<heycam> ... in that case, it would be most natural to say if you click anything in there it hits positive
<heycam> fantasai: if you want to multiply images, then that 's different from just mirroring
<heycam> ... nobody expects to click on a reflection of an icon and have that hit test
<ChrisL> trackbot, status
<heycam> ... if you want something that's actually solid, there should be some other way of doing it that affects layout
<heycam> shepazu: you should use a mask in this case
<heycam> ... nobody's asked for this either
<heycam> fantasai: I think we haven't seen convincing use cases
<ChrisL> trackbot, init
<heycam> dino: if we have the mask image proposal, you would point to the filter image as the mask
<heycam> vhardy: I think that covers most of what we need
<heycam> ... but I think still conceptually this is an important issue
<heycam> ed: raise an issue for this?
<ChrisL> trackbot, status
dino: next one is enable-background.
<ChrisL> tracker, init
<ChrisL> trackbot, status
dino: there is a general proposal to deprecate it.
<ChrisL> trackbot, reload
proposal at: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_2011/Agenda/FilterEffects
<ed> I raised ISSUE-5 for the hit-testing
<ChrisL> tracker, init
<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/track/issues/5
<ChrisL> tracker, init
<Ms2ger> trackbot, init
<ChrisL> trackbot, status
cabanier: enable-background is defined for SVG and not for HTML. We need to define what that does for CSS/HTML.
<ChrisL> adobe used to implement it
dino: who implements enable-background.
<ChrisL> but it seems under-implemented in current svg implementations
Opera, Batik, Illustrator, Inkscape?
<ChrisL> it would be good if adobe illustrator stopped writing it needlessly on svg exports
ed: lunch break.
<dbaron> lunch-break-after: always
<ChrisL> trackbot, status
<ChrisL> yay
<dbaron> ScribeNick: nimbupani
<dbaron> ScribeNick: nimbu
ed: we can do svg composting first and continue with filters
<ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGCompositing/
cabanier: there is a need for adobe to specify the blending into the css.
... it can be done through filters and not easy as specifying keywords. should we adopt what svg is doing in css or having a more limited versin
... the enable-backgrounds is necessary for compositing.
heycam: are we asking first if people are in favour of compositing for css at all?
cabanier: there was a discussing in mailing list where people did not see the point of it. smfr
... since we need it for filters anyway maybe its not a big deal
smfr: webkit has a webkit property which lets you set compositing mode for an image
heycam: can u do all compositing modes with existing svg filter primitives
cabanier: i believe you can.
... difficult as u need to do compositing urself.
vhardy: svg compositing spec is more complete.
... if we are going to go about defining how things should render it would be a general issue. it would be applicable to anything you render. Do ywe want to do smthing that works for css in general?
heycam: if you have already implemented for svg it wont be much work to extend it
cabanier: do u mean spec or implementation?
heycam: implementation
dbaron: how good is enable background is for authors to understand whats going on
... whats the deal with x, y params in that?
cabanier: those will go away. it is more confusing
dbaron: with filters, the defaults meant things were meant to be clipped out.
smfr: enable-bg is like opacity.
cabanier: enable bg just generates stacking context.
... the 1st elm with enable bg new will create a new stacking context, the first descendant that has a blend mode will create a second one and those two will be put together
... i agree the keyword is pretty confusing
TabAtkins: i only understand it coz i have looked at it enough times
... the svg compositing def
szilles is your point editorial improvements will be appreciated dbaron
dbaron: in compositing it sez new buffers are established for both of them. which seems wrong
cabanier: that confusion comes from Porter-Duff …
... lets stick with regular blending modes
dbaron: i am not sure i follow but i dont know if it's worth explaining to me
ed: do we want to have this for css or html?
vhardy: in the rendering model perspective, i dont see any harm done by making this generic
anne: shouldnt all these things be generic
cabanier: maybe we can get a better name if we put this in css
anne: has anyone looked at how similar it is to canvas composite feature
cabanier: canvas has porter-duff this is slightly different
... we had a discussion on splitting it into porter-duff & blending modes. porter-duff is hard to specify.
heycam: blend modes dont need u to keep it off on a separate buffer like enable bg?
cabanier: they do.
<ChrisL> why is porter-duff hard to specify?
heycam: what ist he complexity for porter-duff
anne: why is it "easy" for canvas but not for svg?
vhardy: in svg or html u have multiple nodes and u need to define which to accumulate and what level.
anne: and i guess u have to constantly run it if you change the underlying mode
cabanier: canvas does not know about stacking context.
vhardy: its also one drawing operation at a time
... in tree model you can have whole trees or groups.
cabanier: thats what enable bg does
dbaron: is porter-duff trying to do smthing in cases other than where u have stacking context?
<smfr> url?
dbaron: there are elements that are outside subtree and interleave with htem
<ChrisL> dbaron,svg tries to avoid that interleave so we don't use the stacking conext
shepazu: i dont understand what you mean by interleaving
<ChrisL> shepazu, interleaved in z-order. in other words, not the painters algorithm used in svg
dbaron: if there is A in subtree, B is outside, C is in subtree. and if B is on top of A and C. a sub tree is not a single atomic thing
... css does not even define things in terms of drawing operations
heycam: isnt there an appendix that sez paint the bg paint the border?
<ChrisL> css defines the order of drawing border, background, and text
dbaron: i am not sure if it was going to be interpreted that way.
cabanier: u create two buffers the top one with dest atop(?)
dbaron: in css that sort of thing only makes sense in stacking context
cabanier: enable background adds another stacking context.
dbaron: if the stuff in here needs to apply to css it needs to say more about stacking contexts
... the comp-op property has initial value that sorts over.
<heycam> s/desta top(?)/dest-atop/
<dino> is this the latest spec? http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/compositing/master/SVGCompositing.html
<anne> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGCompositing/
<anne> oh
ChrisL: u would still need stacking context in css and html. there is opacity or smthing that generates new stacking context
vhardy: are u saying comp-op wont trigger new stacking context?
<ed> dino: yes, that's the editor's draft version, http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/compositing/publish/SVGCompositing.html
ChrisL: it wont, even if it did the initial value would be smthing different.
vhardy: should we make this work for html, css?
<anne> ed, that's a 404
<ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/compositing/publish/
<ed> that one works
cabanier: thebig drawback was we didnt want to blend two images together, but if we are doing with filters anyway the drawback goes away.
<anne> ed, should update that to say editor's draft...
ChrisL: it would be helpful if we have one for each host language, and say more clearly what happens.
<scribe> ACTION: cabanier produce a new draft of compositing which should probably called CSS Compositing with appendices on how compositing works in css, html box model and svg model. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - cabanier
shepazu: add cabanier to this list :P
dino: so u dont want to remove enable background.
cabanier: no only the x, y.
<ChrisL> trackbot, status
<dbaron> https://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/users/my
ChrisL: pls add cabanier too :P
<scribe> ACTION: vhardy produce a new draft of compositing which should probably called CSS Compositing with appendices on how compositing works in css, html box model and svg model. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-44 - Produce a new draft of compositing which should probably called CSS Compositing with appendices on how compositing works in css, html box model and svg model. [on Vincent Hardy - due 2011-08-02].
dino: proposal from tab for a new image generator
dino: any image generator, stream of filter property
... does anyone disagree?
... TabAtkins and i agree its a good idea
dbaron: is this an extension to image vals
TabAtkins: will just be in there but will be a new image type
ChrisL: we need to find a separate way to bring it in.
dino: this is the separate way. if u want to just filter the border.
smfr: if u use border-image you will get sharp edges
... Chris suggests we get blur after we slice and stretch
TabAtkins: @ santaclara tpac brad was talking about pulling sections of elements instead of entire element as filter input.
dbaron: i think we need new filter input primitives for css stuff
<ChrisL> you need both. one to filter random images and one to filter the border stuff (which may have been made from images or may not)
smfr: the border-image should be solved this other way.
dino: other places can use this.
dbaron: i can see using multi bg and wanting to filter one of em
<scribe> ACTION: dino update the filter spec to produce the new image type. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-45 - Update the filter spec to produce the new image type. [on Dean Jackson - due 2011-08-02].
<bradk> fitering borders should also filter border-images (since border-images are substitutes for borders)
dino: the next topic there is a dropshadow effect. if there is smway to do it at a higher level than within a filter
cabanier: svg images is an example, so u want shadow around the shapes. it seems an overkill to apply filters to that
patrickdengler: does it not apply to blur and all that stuff. there would be a cross over.
heycam: we do want it for svg content
... if there was some short hand work in svg and not in css…
dino: webkit has an extension -webkit-svg-shadow that will apply the shadow to the svg content
... the reason this was added was canvas has it
... the req was basically to draw a shape and give it a shadow.
ChrisL: is the req to be a simple syntax?
dino: whats the req for current one
ChrisL: u have to do a lot of work to produce it.
dino: another q to ask is, you can assume shadow is a popular thing, now if we add filters would they expect filters to apply to shadow?
ChrisL: if u want to apply two filters on svg, you need to put second filter on group.
pdengler: i was thinking in terms of text-shadow, box-shadow, drop-shadow
... i think css authors dont think of them as filters
... there are categories of effects that have nothing to do with filters.
smfr: the issue is the order of ops
pdengler: it goes with input types.
smfr: if we have filter and box-shadow which do u do first
dino: people consider shadow as part of object drawn
... if you set opacity of text to 0 would you expect shadow to fade as well.
smfr: i think we still render the shadow.
dino: the shadow is really part of the object
smfr: transforms and shadow.
... does the shadow move around, or stay same
... it depends on scenarios
plinss: if i rotate smthing the shadow should stay and rotate.
<tantek> ed: I'd like to spend 5 minutes discussing "color-correction" as mentioned/discussed here http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-CSS-minutes.html (I don't think it's been discussed since) - I think this is the right set of people to discuss it.
<ChrisL> tha is why we added the 'ref' transform for svg so yo can use the local coordinate system of a higher element
Bradk: the shadow should be the last thing that comes after it is transformed
<bradk> :)
dino: should we expose short hand for it?
<scribe> ACTION: dino add shorthand property for shadow. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-46 - Add shorthand property for shadow. [on Dean Jackson - due 2011-08-02].
<tantek> ed: I have to depart by 4pm.
dino: adding dropshadow keyword would become a long f()
<bradk> I imagine an objectg rotating, but still acting as if the light source is from the same direction. But scaling the object should scale the shadow.
dbaron: is it a property or fn
<smfr> like filter: dropshadow(10px, 10px, 20px, blue)
<bradk> not sure if the ofset should scale.
dbaron: what mechanism is it coming from, when the author is not specifying the order
... when author lists in order then no problme
smfr: issue when interacting with other css properties.
dbaron: i see box-shadow as part of border drawing stuff. and it would happen before filters.
dino: that was my point
... not an effect like blur or warp
bradk: can box-shadow be simulated with css?
... can box-shaow be simulated with filters?
smfr: u could, but you have to generate mask the rounded border box which the shadow is applied to
dino: u can do with markup filters by filter chain that floods black region, offsets it, composits
<ChrisL> yes i assumed the question related to doing it with markup filters
dino: not in short hand
... proposal for a wave effect
... ms has implemented
... ed commented it might be interesting.
<bradk> I've never personally had any need for a wave effect.
<tantek> how about a new wave effect?
dino: it seems like there is not much support
... discussion about custom element to add any effect
... some implementations have effects to add that are useful
<ChrisL> as i mentioned earlier, a dom interface allws room for experimentation
dino: some way it could be done as an extension and not how to prefix a fn name
... the webGl community all agreed on same prefix
... u get interoperability between browsers but no guarantee it would work forever
... some effects that might be common the implementations would agree enough, it could possibly done in that manner
heycam: we would need a reasonably complete desc of what that filter would be.
dino: it is worthwhile getting feature pushed thro trackers as quickly as possible
... there are some effects tht would be useful to authors. there cant be much debate on how it can be implemented. e.g motion blue
... how should they do it? prefix fn names or if its standard enough, send proposal, wait for agreement and use an experimental prefix
heycam: prefixing sounds like a good idea
smfr: we have prefixed fn names for gradients so its not new
dino: idea of shared prefx name has not been proposed before
... it seems to work pretty well in webGL community
szilles classic problem webkit community have webkit prefix
szilles getting agreement doing the same thing or it breaks
szilles: if it breaks come up with the new prefix.
... that was concern in csswg seemed safer for each implementation to have own prefix so it tried to be consistent to itself
dino: its not like its a big issue anyway. if and when people want to use these new effects we will see what happens
cabanier: it would be nice to have one prefix.
heycam: its diff from property names
dino: i guess u can still.
smfr: people do that with bg image
heycam: its an invalid value.
dino: filter property in css om
ed: thats come up before whether or not if it should be exposed to cssom
anne: exposed or rename attr on interface to css filter
... i dont think there is a middle ground
... ecmascript guys hate the document.all as it is hidden
... that is the pattern we dont want to follow
... i dont know why we didnt go with that.
... it is for attr exposed on css style decl
... and style decl values
smfr: is it coz ie claimed filter
anne: yes
dbaron: we have been shipping element.style.filter
ed: also opera
... its not a big problem
... not many sites are broken
dino: we should also ask ms
pdengler: we see this coming anyway. i dont know what our avenues are to change.
... i think we have some mitigations
heycam: u can still support if the syntax is right
pdengler: we are okay on this one if you want to keep style.filter
... sylvaing?
ed: see if we can publish smthing so people know where we are
dino: we are happy to publish it
ChrisL: there are sm people who are not rep here.
dbaron: this is pretty much a full css meeting hre.
<dbaron> We've been shipping element.style.filter since Firefox 4... so not all that long, but we have shipped it.
RESOLUTION: publish the FXTF Filter Effects draft as soon as the edits discussed in this meeting are done.
<scribe> ACTION: ChrisL to check whether or not filters spec sounds as a new draft or not [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-47 - Check whether or not filters spec counts as a new draft or not [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-08-02].
dino: moving to css / svg animations.
ed: we have half an hour before break.
<birtles> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_2011/Agenda/Animations/Harmonisation
birtles: seems like there are diff ideas on where we are heading.
... check if we are on same page where we want to end up with animations in the long run
... see how feasible it is to merge them
<tantek> http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/w3.org
<tantek> http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/web5.w3.org
<birtles> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11894343/Harmonisation.htm
birtles: the target of animation is diff svg is 1 attr on an elm, css is more flex
... its smthing we need to fix in svg
... bigger diff is the values, in svg you can have independent anims targetting one attr and control how they combine together. and have anims build on themselves
... more significant diff its been proposed to css anims be added to underlying styles. i dont think there is anything to add anims together.
smfr: we would like to be able to do
<ChrisL> its a common use case to apply multiple animations
smfr: we ahve talked about adding it to css for a while
vhardy: having same sandwich model as SMIL would help.
<ChrisL> yes, i think its needed and the sandwich model works well
birtles: one complication is there are rules, and its a grey area
... animation types how to do interpolation.
... interval timing is quite diff
<ChrisL> lets get rid of wallclock, please
birtles: css does not have complexity of svg
... SMIL has all sorts of rules which is a big area of difference. which might be difficult to merge and be impossible to merge.
... multiple intervals, and syncbase
ChrisL: do we find that syncbase stuff is getting used well?
birtles: my guess is it is. i have already proposed that we drop it and introduce timing groups instead which gives 80% of fn with fraction of complexity
... i am concerned people are using it
vhardy: what do you mean by you dont want syncbase?
birtles: SMIL has 2 diff features for kicking off anims
... when an animation ends/starts, when I get an event
... basically maintain network of times and work out how to break that network
... u can hv -ve offsets
... event based is easier
shepazu: to implement?
birtles: yes for authors syncbase is better it is more predictable.
ed: in most cases u dont want two sync anims to start slightly off, want it to start at same time
heycam: u can fudge it.
birtles: SMIL sez put event timestamp and use that.
vhardy: syncbase can give u a way to get perfect sync
birtles: time containers can give u that for most of use cases.
dino: whats an e.g of time container?
vhardy: difficulty is in spec hard to wrap head around, impl. is not that much code.
... once u know what to do, its not that bad.
birtles: i have test cases which werent working on other browsers. cyclic dependencies SMIL has rules to break them but not impl. consistently.
vhardy: it takes a couple of iterations to get right
heycam: it is complex to understand as well.
birtles: svg lacks some things for timing fns
... has timing mode mostly for motion on a path.
... svg does not hve reversing, smthing we should add.
<ChrisL> adding reversing would be very helpful
birtles: its not too different.
... its unfortunate the names are diff between css anims and svg.
... css takes a snapshot, svg everything is live
shepazu: i dont understand what you mean
<ChrisL> you mean for the actual animation atributes themselves via dom, right
dino: if you change duration, transition during animation it does not change the animation itself
... SMIL allows you to manipulate prop of animations while you animate.
birtles: if you do try to merge these two, this needs to be resolved.
... svg makes everything declarative. css assumes you can use script to cancel anims
... we want to maintain decl. approach in svg
vhardy: it is not obv what timing model is for css animations.
birtles: svg has a notion of outermost element is a time container.
<ChrisL> in svgt 1.2 we made all svg elements be time containers, also the media elements. that wasa a request from the accessibility folks
<bradk> speak up!
birtles: do u want to be able to schedule multiple intervals.
... i suppose if we add time containers anyway we dont need to do that.
smfr: time 0 is where load event fired?
... you might want to start animations when page is loading.
ed: in tiny 1.2 there is timelineBegin=onStart which solves that problem
pdengler: there is more usage of css than svg
... SMIL is more sophisticated and complex and causes problems in syntax and merging
... given css syntax is being more quickly adopted by webdevs, shouldnt that be…
... anecdotal, i have seen more css anims than svg. the css syntax is better absorbed. coz there is complexity merging seems scary to me
birtles: thats exact q i wanted to talk about
pdengler: i think css anims is picking up.
<ChrisL> questio for pat, if we end up still with two separate specs will IEnext implement only the css one?
birtles: have listed 3 possibilities. 1. drop svg anims and use css 2. merge them 3. try to align and play together but comprable enough so web devs can switch if they need to.
... #2 seems difficult, and I am nots o sure its impossible.
... looking at 1 and 3. if we were to drop svg animations, we would need to add some features to achieve feature-parity.
anne: are the missing features in wide use?
florian: probably got a bunch of uis written in svg
anne: at some point it will die out
<anne> I so support Microsoft for once
shepazu: we all agree we want one model
vhardy: i agree with what ChrisL is saying. i dont have strong feelings for syntax. anims is like text so as you get deeper you realise how complex it is.
... i would focus on what features we need. timing model. recommend we use SMIL as resource
... i am okay with a new syntax.
pdengler: i dont disagree with we need feature parity.
shepazu: i prefer the element syntax to css syntax, but i dont remember my rationale.
<anne> (With saying no to SVG Animation / SMIL)
heycam: the syntax is the sticking point here.
<ChrisL> doug is saying the stae chart stuff is one example where an element based syntax helps
dino: is there a way to get to option 2 by changing the way SMIL currently is.
smfr: when we talk about css animations we need css anims plus js.
... we cant put all of svg into decl. css
dino: hope to come up with api that can be shared
... can we map that api to SMIL
vhardy: u need a decl way of animations.
shepazu: wiling to see how far we can go with css syntax
... just dont develop it further
smfr: here is an issue that is specific to css: css applies properties at style resol. time and we dont define when style resol. is. the timing thing is ill-defined.
vhardy: we tried to work on exporting timings to animations, it is hacky stuff.
<ChrisL> so we could end up paiting ourselves into a corner that can't for example animate things before the document completely loaded
pdengler: css animations does not have the right stuff, then how is smil going to apply to html.
<bradk> break time?
<bradk> afternoon snacks must have arrived
<bradk> :)
<ed> break 15min yes
ed: should we go thro the options, do we have strong objections to #1?
birtles: i am uncomfortable pushing all complexity to css
... okay dropping SMIL
anne: why do u want angle bracket syntax
birtles: u can already manipulate angle bracket stuff easily. it would be out of place to chuck in a style block to animate while everything else is in XML
... it can get complicated
dino: if u think about a complex animations, you may have to put an id on every element and might have overhead on performance.
tantek: would be great to see illustrative e.g.
birtles: if its xml you can already manipulate elm with DOM API. if its new css u would need to invent a new DOM API
anne: with xml u only get string manipulation by default which is not really right.
birtles: how to change this attr, all apis already exist for that.
ed: if we decide to drop svg animations, then css should cover svg use cases and i am not sure that problem is small either.
heycam: it seems odd to me to have CSS anims affecting dom attr and not property values
dino: i am not comfortable having css anims affect dom
anne: what u mean by dom attr
heycam: like x, y, attr on rect
... its not a big deal in html as u dont animate things that are not properties.
... many geometry things are attr and not properties
... i had a proposal to make attr properties, but it did not get traction.
dino: pollution of property, potential clashes, were arguments against
heycam: if we used shape-left instead of x, would lose the fact that attr and property would have same name.
<dholbert> (side point: <animateMotion path="whatever"> is pretty useful & isn't easy to convert to CSS, even with attr-property mappings) (as I think birtles mentions in his document)
vhardy: we stopped short of that we did not bring it to csswg.
heycam: i thought TabAtkins mailed www-style with diff options
<dino> dholbert, he does mention it
TabAtkins: i dont recall getting much of a response.
<dbaron> Why not 'left' <=> @x, etc.
vhardy: we should have prioritized list of req of what we need to put in.
... set of animation feature sets that can work on svg, css, html
<heycam> dbaron, there are a few properties that map ok like that, not all
vhardy: and then see if we can push css animations to that or not.
<heycam> dbaron, also suffers from the fact that it's a different name
<scribe> ACTION: dino to write up use-cases and priority list of features to be added to css animations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-48 - Write up use-cases and priority list of features to be added to css animations [on Dean Jackson - due 2011-08-02].
dino: we can make a wikipage
<tantek> "color-correction" as mentioned/discussed here http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-CSS-minutes.html (I don't think it's been discussed since)
<dbaron> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-color-correction/
tantek: has there been any update on this front?
ChrisL: one of the versions of mac os x changed from gamma of 1.8 to 1.2 it means throwing stuff at the screen on current macs should be same as current PCs.
... it used to be that macs had diff gamma correction.
smfr: its not just about gamma correction but finding ways to authors to map css colors to images
ChrisL: the way we can do that, is to treat untagged images as sRGB
dbaron: is there any browser where untagged images and css colors mismatch?
... there are bunch of browsers that do good color matches for tagged images, but dont for untagged and we want authors to optin to color correction
<krijnh> (Should I publicly log this channel as well?)
smfr: webkit has a property for color correction.
<krijnh> anne: ^^
dbaron: i did put the stuff we discussed in a draft on dev.w3.org didnt do anything in that draft.
... it needs more work
<ChrisL> this is already logged btw
<scribe> ACTION: smfr to look at dbaron's draft and see if it matches what they have implemented and determine if its an issue or not. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-49 - Look at dbaron's draft and see if it matches what they have implemented and determine if its an issue or not. [on Simon Fraser - due 2011-08-02].
<ChrisL> it would be good to knw if those pages are safari specific
<smfr> ok
<anne> krijnh, yeah
<ChrisL> the problem with this is that it removes sRGB as a baseline and replaces 'dio what you want' as the baseline
<krijnh> And offline once in a while :)
tantek: do u have doc of support somewhere?
smfr: will check.
<anne> krijnh, if you can handle that :)
tantek: post url to doc if it exists.
<krijnh> anne: fixing the auto cache refresh thing right now
<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_2011/Agenda/SVGParamsUrlSyntax
shepazu: we would like to consider csswg want to do smthing like this.
TabAtkins: in ref to combining efforts, csswg is interested in pursuing vars.
<krijnh> anne: done, every night around 00:10
TabAtkins: params can work in with concept of vars such that you would put params and they would create vars.
<krijnh> Windows Task Scheduler ftw :')
shepazu: i thought you would decl. canonical what is the var, and explicitly say this would be the param for that var
TabAtkins: yours is probably a better idea.
<krijnh> anne, hober: logging this channel as well, will add them to my site somewhere this week
shepazu: # syntax has been overloaded by media fragments.
... 3rd syntax is x-pointer style function that enclose vars in would be best way forward.
... imagine those are .css files. you are passing in a list of parameters within paranthesis
<smfr> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/param/master/SVGParamPrimer.html
<shepazu> fill="param(color) blue"
shepazu: if param is not passed in, use this keyword
<shepazu> x="calc(param(coordx)+10%)"
<tpod> Thanks everyone. I'll keel lurking as long as this connection holds.
shepazu: is there any problem with this?
<tpod> *keep
heycam: for vars you know ahead of time.
florian: csswg did not express interest in variables but only allow tab to work on his draft.
... vars were global to the page, but params are stylesheet local and would make people who hate variables hate them more
shepazu: my q is given this is smthing we are interested in adding in svg. if you want to add this in the future in css, is this acceptable in broad terms
TabAtkins: some of the qs raised against my proposal are valid here. are they changable by script?
shepazu: yes
... the HTML WG is not interested in changing the params thing
TabAtkins: presumably there would some script based api to easily handle them rather than parse them urself
shepazu: smone proposed a url parsing api.
anne: adam barth is working on that.
shepazu: maybe we just plug this into abarth's thing
anne: is this not like param elms?
shepazu: at one point it was, but they didnt like that.
heycam: as in specify value of params in the url.
shepazu: there are param elements. if only thing we can do is url syntax that is okay with me
... this is a diff kind of param passing
heycam: adam barth proposed to get query string, this is stuff embedded in frame.
... its going to hit the network every time.
TabAtkins: i dont like the way u are defining right now to use a param with default val.
... u cannot use the syntax if you use fill property in css.
... if u want default values on params pre decl them
shepazu: that was in org version of spec, but dropped as people didnt like
... what would be better for css
TabAtkins: anything where u have space separated value becomes ambiguous with what is there right now. this is problem in css and maybe for future svg things
<ChrisL> %20 is your freind
<ChrisL> url escaped space
<scribe> ACTION: shepazu propose a couple of diff syntax and submit them for wider review and see what people think about them and ping csswg [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-50 - Propose a couple of diff syntax and submit them for wider review and see what people think about them and ping csswg [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-08-02].
TabAtkins: nothing to do with spaces in param decl but in param use
... param blue foo is ambiguous if you are specifying fallback or another value
<ChrisL> syntactic spaces considered harmful. syntactic spaces as ancestor selectors, doubly so
TabAtkins: if u use param in a path, it would be THE example.
<plinss_> param(name, default)
<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_2011/Agenda/FXTransforms
vhardy: agree on how we can go about doing this. I can help with editing the doc.
heycam: who are editors of current doc?
vhardy: dean chris simon and we also had anthony
... what we want here is to understand what we need as next step.
... i just want to know how we go about producing a new document.
dino: you run into issue of how to combine with svg if u call it css transforms
vhardy: soln is to say its css transform. there are only 2 ways to combine them.
heycam: i seem to be the only one in fav of turning into a property
... the fact that transform dom attr does not translate to property names…
... arg against turn into property is what svg dom access to transform stuff means. i dont think its impossible to design smthing
vhardy: if we agree on putting together a doc. we agree on intent to combine them.
smfr: want a time frame as we already have implementations of css transforms
vhardy: is it okay if we try to advance 2d first and then 3d
smfr: it is simple to have 1 doc, but we have multiple impl. of 2d transforms.
dbaron: we are getting a few pieces of 3d transforms in
shepazu: by the time we finish this spec would we not have 2 impl.
vhardy: is that not likely?
<dbaron> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=505115
smfr: for 3d transforms the impl would be more widely varied.
... there are no obv conflicts in om.
sylvaing: i wouldnt want to take risk of doing 3d if smthing changes in 2d.
dino: that relies on css om. we removed that css values have still been deprecated.
sylvaing: we need a better def for 3D anyway.
vhardy: goes into direction of might as well have one spec.
shepazu: is anyone not using 2d transforms coz its not standardized?
dbaron: it is a pain for the authors coz of prefixes
shepazu: bigger pain if we get it wrong
sylvaing: do i prefix only 3d?
smfr: fair point as you can mix 2d & 3d functions
heycam: are there no more open issues on 2d?
smfr: there are def issues w.r.t svg and css
... the issue with dropping prefix on 2d and not on 3d might have a workaround.
... it is possible to pass 3d transform functions, and throw away the z parts.
dino: if they wanted to do 3d they can use prefix and the prefixed one beats the unprefixed one.
smfr: you wouldnt want to do that.
vhardy: my pref is to make it one doc and work out the issues we have and move forward.
smfr: ideally that would be mine too, but i think it would take 2 years
vhardy: it does not hurt to have one spec if its the hold up.
dino: we say we want to know what it should be.
anne: the thing with om you cant really pull transforms in front of designing the value api.
smfr: transforms are a good test case for value api
sylvaing: try to drop prefixes on the property but the om can have the prefixes.
smfr: probably apply the same for gradients
anne: webkit still has the old value api. all the new apis are designed around premise of keeping around that api.
... that seems bad as we abandonded it around 2003 or 4
shepazu: this does not resolve question of svg and css
smfr: does resolve prefix droppping on 2d and not on 3d
anne: why cant we drop for 3d.
smfr: we dont have more than 1 impl and there will be lots of issues when there are more.
dbaron: i would be interested in figuring out what you do wrong.
dino: would property change even if impl is undefined.
smfr: the values and property are fairly stable. svg might add a few things.
... there is an issue with units in matrix
dbaron: issue of whether we want px as base unit, or get unit right in "some sense"
... i am less confident in the stability of other properties in 3d transforms.
smfr: we should start filing issues somewhere
shepazu: it seems like people think this is priority. is that right?
smfr: i think so.
shepazu: we can make lot of progress if we start pushing this.
dino: the progress is all being in stuff thats stable and existing, the work to be done to merge the two specs is how does svg become transform properties
ChrisL: it is better that way to style if we multiply together
dino: it becomes harder if you want to make all svg attr properties then you would have two properties
heycam: convert to property and use css one.
<ChrisL> "we dont need to keeparound SVG transforms" uh huh, make every single piece of svg non conformant at a stroke ....
heycam: what do others think about turning svg transform attr into a property
<ChrisL> turning it into a property makes it apply to all elements
shepazu: deal with legacy transform attr deal with it as we did, going forward use css transforms
heycam: i dont want to put transform inside style.
shepazu: whats the downside
heycam: we need to make sure the syntax is compat and make sure existing one would work
... needto define what access to SVG transform means
... i think we can come up with smthing reasonable.
... i was hoping we would resolve syntax comat problems anyway.
Jennifer: would 3d apply to svg.
heycam: there are plans to.
vhardy: smfr u were talking about applying 3d transforms to svg right?
smfr: yep
<smfr> ChrisL: you're rustling
ed: look at TraitAccess in svg tiny 1.2, it allows fetching both baseVal and animVal for properties as well as for normal attributes
RESOLUTION: Turn transform attribute into a CSS property and heycam to investigate and write a proposal to what SVG DOM does in this situation
<scribe> ACTION: heycam to investigate and write a proposal to what SVG DOM does when svg transform attribute becomes a css property [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-51 - Investigate and write a proposal to what SVG DOM does when svg transform attribute becomes a css property [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-08-02].
dino: we still got the question on merging the spec.
... the transforms spec requires units in translations.
smfr: transform-origin changes
heycam: u still worried about slight differences in svg and css.
<ChrisL> yeah lets kill the units requirement
dino: making one unified spec isnt just adding 3d stuff but also combining unitless and united transform fns and maybe differences in transform origin
heycam: we should try to resolve any diff we can and put the restl as slight differences between presentation and property
ed: some of the issues have been resolved in fx transforms draft e.g. transform-origin has been resolved.
dino: the most dangerous difference is smthing like transform scale(2) and expect it to apply to a bunch of elms some of which are svg and html.
heycam: hows origin resolved?
ed: i think svg elements it was moved to smthing else.
anne: svg elms can have different origin specified
heycam: are u saying it could be confusing?
dino: yeah
anne: svg has diff co-ordinate model than css anyway
ed: you can specify transform-origin:50%,50% explicitly for svg to get the same origin as for other elements
dino: next step is to find someone who wants to do it.
heycam: i have to look at transforms stuff and look at impact to svg
vhardy: i am willing to help.
<dbaron> Sounds like there are at least some :hover editors :-)
dino: i am oaky if you(vhardy) took it over
vhardy: heycam has a bunch of items that anthony had.
smfr: i am willing to edit some of the 3d parts
vhardy: i am not ready to do it just by myself.
dino: the stuff that needs to be done is the difficult part.
vhardy: i like someone to work with me on editing an wording the svg stuff
smfr: i would like other implementors to start filing issues
dbaron: whats the tracking mechanism?
vhardy: we have a wiki page.
<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_2011/Agenda/FXTransforms
smfr: wiki is fine.
<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/FX-Taskforce/2DTransformsToDoList
vhardy: we agree to do one spec and call it 'css transforms'?
smfr: there is confusion with xslt transform
... so we need a prefix
RESOLUTION: The CSS 2d, 3d, SVG 2d and 3d, FX transforms spec are going to be combined into one CSS Transforms spec.
<scribe> ACTION: vhardy to work with heycam dino smfr to work on the new spec for CSS Transforms. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/26-fx-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-52 - Work with heycam dino smfr to work on the new spec for CSS Transforms. [on Vincent Hardy - due 2011-08-03].
dbaron: i have mixed feelings, as 2d is more stable than 3d.
... last TPAC we had a resolution to get css 2d get to CR more quickly
dino: boris, dbaron and sylvaing had comments on css 2d
vhardy: i will work with you smfr dino to figure out what would be the best base to start from.
dbaron: we can still advance the current specification
florian: so combined spec becomes css 4
<dbaron> dbaron: I think we should keep the option open to advance 2-D, but I'm ok with going ahead with this approach.
dino: it is just interesting that we have a spec that could possibly enter cr and we are not progressing it.
shepazu: do we have tests for it?
smfr: we have some test cases that are being worked on
shepazu: if people want to push css2d before css2d and 3d go for it.
heycam: i dont think its a problem
... its only a problem if we need to make changes to css2d spec.
... i dont see how spec organization impacts 3d.
smfr: how do u ship a browser that supports prefixed or unprefixed.
heycam: thats a q regardless of whether they are in same spec or not
smfr: if in same spec u can drop prefixes at once.
heycam: is that the convention?
smfr: yeah one module yeah.
shepazu: having a 2d spec does not resolve the issue
smfr: thats true.
heycam: is the convention to drop prefix once we get to CR?
dbaron: convention is to drop prefix once u go to CR and get the test suite
shepazu: we have no problems with anyone pushing 2D stuff, even putting it into CR.
smfr: i think thats fine. we will figure out how to deal with prefix issue when it comes up.
... the combined spec is a good thing in long term, if we decide we want to we can accelerate the 2d spec separately and we will figure out internally issues related to dropping the prefix smhow.
vhardy: we could have a draft by TPAC for transforms
ed: for filters how long it would take?
dino: i can have it done by the week.
dino: everyone has agreed we can publish it as first WD
vhardy: discuss on friday how much progress we can make w.r.t compositing
cabanier: how 3d transforms work with compositing and filters. as compositing assumes 2D.
dino: we do specify some form of flattening in the 3D spec. it is a bit of mlack magic at this moment.
vhardy: can u discuss this smtime tomorrow?
ed: thats all on the agenda i could squeeze a bit about the testing
... plinss currently the svg test suite is not using the test harness, it could be useful.
<plinss_> test.csswg.org/harness
<bradk> I have to take off. I wish all travelers a bon voyage.
plinss: it presents all the test in a test suite
<bradk> bye!
plinss: it computes what order …
... there are metadata embedded in the test which links back to the url.
... presents your test in an iframe,. test can be multiple formats in a tabbed interface.
... upper right hand corner you have current results known by rendering engine
... it is doing manual testing visual.
... it has a bunch of reporting system.
... shows detailed results gathered thro that particular tests, user agent.
... full flushed out test file.
you can also see results by portions of the spec.
<plinss_> http://test.csswg.org/annotations/css21/
plinss: there is a spec annotation system
... tests show up for each section
... it injects that annotation mark.
... annotations link back to the harness
... the title for each annotation takes u to the test itself.
shepazu: how do u put this into the spec?
plinss: 1 line of script
alan: how does it display if a section does not have tests? maybe it should display red.
plinss: not every section needs tests
... there are some features that are exposed in the ui, you can enter another UA string.
... I run a cron that takes all the results and figures out where tests are needed most to get to CR
... there is an instance of this running on 23c server
... its all open source.
shepazu: so in svg i can't tell can u do side by side comparisons?
<plInss_> http://test.csswg.org/harness/test/CSS21_DEV/flag/reftest/
plinss: yoyou can do back and forth side by side.
... can specify it must look like this page, AND this page and NOT like this page.
... the reference can be plain reference file or another test.
shepazu: can we resolve to move to this in SVG 2?
ed: i am most interested is the ability to see the test+results in each spec sections
shepazu: even if u dont do tests in this harness you can post reports.
plinss: i believe mozilla and webkit have their own systems to run automated tests and they can export it to the harness.
<plinss_> http://w3c-test.org/framework/
TabAtkins: mainly for csswg, could people respond to thread of background-print property
<TabAtkins_> >
<TabAtkins_> > --
<TabAtkins_> > Joshua Ganderson | Front End Software Engineer | jganderson@google.com | 512.627.1539
<plinss_> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/nightly-unstable/report/
<TabAtkins_> >
<TabAtkins_> > --
<TabAtkins_> > Joshua Ganderson | Front End Software Engineer | jganderson@google.com | 512.627.1539
<TabAtkins_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jul/0341.html
TabAtkins: soln suggested by glazou to have authors override default UA stylesheets is not feasible as browsers do not want authors to override UA styles
plinss: i have no problem to override it, the default needs to be auto. we need smthing in css when user pref is auto.
glazou: in your opinion auto is do not print bg until the author says print background
plinss: there is no way to change default.
TabAtkins: background-print is just an element property.
ed: adjourned.
<tantek> safe travels everyone