- From: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
- Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 16:16:50 -0400
- To: "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
Link: http://www.w3.org/2014/09/30-aapi-minutes.html
Plain text follows:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
30 Sep 2014
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2014/09/30-aapi-irc
Attendees
Present
Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Rich_Schwerdtfeger,
Bryan_Garaventa, Cynthia_Shelly
Regrets
David_Bolter
Chair
Joseph_Scheuhammer
Scribe
joanie, clown
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]ACTION-1444: (Joanie) Investigate the ideal
atk/at-spi2 mapping for role presentation in tables
and lists. (Done?)
2. [5]ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create a test case, if there
is none, to test the rowgroup role.
3. [6]ACTION-1373: (Cynthia) Create a test case for when
aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly
on some but not all elements.
4. [7]ACTION-1396: (Cynthia) MSAA+UIAExpress mapping of
grid role.
5. [8]ACTION-1444: (Joanie) Investigate the ideal
atk/at-spi2 mapping for role presentation in tables
and lists. (Done?)
6. [9]ACTION-1445: (Cynthia) Investigate the ideal uai
mapping for role presentation in tables and lists
7. [10]Reminder, heartbeat draft
* [11]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 30 September 2014
<clown> agenda: this
<joanie> Scribenick: joanie
ACTION-1444: (Joanie) Investigate the ideal atk/at-spi2 mapping for
role presentation in tables and lists. (Done?)
<clown> action-1444?
<trackbot> action-1444 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Investigate the
ideal atk/at-spi2 mapping for role presentation in tables and
lists. -- due 2014-08-26 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[12]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1444
[12] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1444
JS: You made a note about this in June. Why is this still open?
JD: I'm not sure.
JS: I have an action to write text about this. I'm waiting for
all these (platform) action items to be complete.
<clown> scribenick: clown
RS: you want all the elements mapped as divs?
JD: Yes, there is a discussion with Alex, and yes, div is
perfect.
RS: Just for ATK/AT-SPI?
JD: Well, maybe it can be extdended to other APIs.
RS: If we switch to a div, it will break things all over the
place.
... The could be very destructive. It could break an awful lot
of stuff.
JD: It doesn't break things as role text?
RS: It seems to work now.
JD: That's valid, but this might be a case where ATK is
different from IA2.
... But, it's not role text.
RS: That's fine. But, I don't think there is an issue with role
text on IA2.
<joanie> Scribenick: joanie
JS: This came about because at one point Firefox changed how it
deals with presentational tables.
... It smushed it into a single text blob.
RS: We really need to look at this. If it was div before,
without the smushing, ok. But I don't want to break anything.
... I agree that merging the text all together is not a good
thing.
JS: The question remains: What is the role of the individual
cells?
<clown> [13]https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945435
[13] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945435
<clown>
[14]https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945435#c9
[14] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945435#c9
JS: According to the above comment, when they fixed it for IA2,
they used ROLE_TEXTFRAME.
... Is that the same as ROLE_TEXT?
RS: I'm not sure.
JS: (Quotes comment from the bug)
<clown> IA2_ROLE_TEXTFRAME
RS: (Looks up roles)
<clown> ATK_ROLE_TEXT
<clown> scribenick: clown
RS: <discussion of using div vs. text frame>
JD: Ignoring this case, what are other examples of
IA2_TEXT_FRAME?
... I'm trying to get a better feel for what a text frame is.
RS: The only place I know it's used is tables with role
presentation.
... Exposed by FF.
JD: Can we solve this by saying, if this isn't something we
don't want to expose in the first place, don't do it now.
RS: Another question: can we do something different for Linux
than we do for Windows.
... What is a div on linux?
JD: It's ROLE_SECTION
RS: Do they have a text frame for the table itself.
... The TDs become text frames.
... Do the TRs go away?
BL: I think they do.
RS: Is that something we could do for the linux version?
... So, the table and TRs go away, but the TDs are mapped to
section?
JD: That's what I asked for in the bug.
RS: What happens to a caption?
JS: I think it goes away on a presentation table.
CS: We advise authors against that type of error.
<joanie> Scribenick: Joanie
<clown> action-1104?
<trackbot> action-1104 -- Cynthia Shelly to Define what the
accessibility API mapping is for UIA on aria-describedby in
section 5.5.1 table when the element does not exist in the
accessibility tree such as when css: display:none applies --
due 2014-08-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[15]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1104
[15] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1104
JS: Last week we went through David's actions.
... We'd like to do that with yours today.
... (reads first issue)
CS: This is an open issue in UIA. My plan is to open an issue
in our internal system, assign it to myself, and get something
done.
... An answer of what should happen, I can probably get in a
few weeks.
JS: October 21st then.
ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create a test case, if there is none, to test
the rowgroup role.
<clown> action-1372?
<trackbot> action-1372 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case,
if there is none, to test the rowgroup role -- due 2014-08-22
-- OPEN
<trackbot>
[16]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1372
[16] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1372
<clown> issue-635?
<trackbot> issue-635 -- Determine if uaig mappings for rowgroup
are correct -- open
<trackbot> [17]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/635
[17] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/635
JS: This is related to issue 635.
CS: I haven't done this yet, how about after TPAC? November
15th.
ACTION-1373: (Cynthia) Create a test case for when aria-posinset and
aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements.
<clown> action-1373?
<trackbot> action-1373 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case
for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly
on some but not all elements. -- due 2014-08-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[18]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1373
[18] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1373
JS: Another test case one.
CS: This one I might be able to do earlier as it is related to
something I'm actively working on. Three weeks.
ACTION-1396: (Cynthia) MSAA+UIAExpress mapping of grid role.
<clown> action-1396
<trackbot> action-1396 -- Cynthia Shelly to Modify uaig to
convey grid role in accessibility mappings, beyond table.
(atk/atspi/ ia2 xml-role=grid, macosx: roledescription: grid,
msaa/uiaexpress localizedcontroltype="grid"?) -- due 2014-08-26
-- OPEN
<trackbot>
[19]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1396
[19] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1396
CS: Mid november.
JS: I have some suggestions in the notes.
CS: Good, that will help.
ACTION-1444: (Joanie) Investigate the ideal atk/at-spi2 mapping for
role presentation in tables and lists. (Done?)
JS: That's already discussed.
CS: There's an equivalent one for UIA.
ACTION-1445: (Cynthia) Investigate the ideal uai mapping for role
presentation in tables and lists
<clown> action-1445?
<trackbot> action-1445 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate the
ideal uai mapping for role presentation in tables and lists. --
due 2014-08-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[20]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1445
[20] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1445
CS: What did you decide for ATK?
JS: Map them as if they are divs.
CS: I think that's going to be the best for UIA.
JS: Rich concerns about this?
RS: It's fine as long as we have AT support.
CS: I think we ought to be consistent.
... Right now, if you have a div, it's usually ignored I think.
... (by the ATs)
RS: They do and they don't.
... What's important is that when you mark something as
presentational, it doesn't merge the elements together.
... You want to preserve the element separation.
CS: Right now, I believe it does merge text.
... I don't think that's good behavior.
... I'm proposing an accessible on object for every node.
... (mentions group)
RS: I wouldn't give it a role of group.
CS: Group is what we map div to.
JS: To be clear, the group role is a UIA group; not an ARIA
group.
CS: In IE an ARIA role group also maps to role group.
... It may be that ARIA role group should be mapped to
something different.
RS: I think it's important to separate these out.
CS: It seems unlikely that we would change the mapping for div
as those are all over the place.
... Remapping ARIA role group would be more sane.
RS: I asked James about this.
<clown>
[21]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-imple
mentation.html#role-map-rowgroup
[21]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#role-map-rowgroup
RS: He said those aren't real groups.
... We need to resolve these pieces
<clown>
[22]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#group
[22] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#group
CS: Agreed. It sounds like the ARIA group role needs to map to
something different.
RS: Agreed.
... The issue is what is the ideal mapping for ARIA role group
so that it doesn't conflict with the generic group role which
is used on many platform a11y APIs.
<clown> issue: What is the ideal mapping for the ARIA group
role, such that it does not semantically conflict with the
generic group role on AAPIs, e.g,, AXAPI and UIA.
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-678 - What is the ideal mapping for
the aria group role, such that it does not semantically
conflict with the generic group role on aapis, e.g,, axapi and
uia.. Please complete additional details at
<[23]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/678/edit>.
[23] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/678/edit%3E.
<clown> [24]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/678
[24] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/678
JS: Are there any issues we want to add?
RS: We may want to discuss this during the ARIA call.
... Give me an action to talk about it.
<clown> ACTION: Rich to discuss issue-678 at the Mon ARIA
teleconference. [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2014/09/30-aapi-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1515 - Discuss issue-678 at the mon
aria teleconference. [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due
2014-10-07].
<clown> action-1515
<trackbot> action-1515 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Discuss
issue-678 at the mon aria teleconference. -- due 2014-10-07 --
OPEN
<trackbot>
[26]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1515
[26] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1515
Reminder, heartbeat draft
JS: Please identify what you want to include.
RS: Will this include the name and description document?
JS: Yes.
RS: What I personally would like to see is the interlock
between the two of them.
... I also need this for the SVG spec.
... TPAC is less than a month away.
JS: And really, it's more like two weeks so that Michael can do
the needed work.
CS: That seems like a good topic. When do we need to have these
done? The 14th?
JS: I'll bring it up at tomorrow's Editor's meeting.
(Group discussion about the possible impact of the github
repository reorg on meeting our heartbeat goals. Conclusion:
We'll discuss this as well at tomorrow's Editors' meeting.)
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Rich to discuss issue-678 at the Mon ARIA
teleconference. [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2014/09/30-aapi-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
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__________________________________________________________
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Received on Tuesday, 30 September 2014 20:17:31 UTC