Re: Is ARIA A11y only? [Was: @aria-describedat at-risk ...]

James Craig writes:
> 
> > On Dec 8, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> wrote:
> > 
> > James Craig writes:
> >> On Dec 8, 2014, at 10:14 AM, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> There's an important question that's being lost when discussed in the
> >>> context of ARIA-DescribedAt (or the context of HTML Longdesc). We need a
> >>> clear consensus statement somewhere in our ARIA docs about whether, or
> >>> not ARIA is restricted for use by AT user agents via Accessibility APIs.
> >>> 
> >>> In other words, do we insist the curb cut is for wheel chairs only? All
> >>> skate boards and baby strollers must stay away.
> >> 
> >> This is a misinterpretation of the case against @aria-describedat. ARIA has always been an accessibility-only approach. If you want to use the curb cut analogy, native host language features are the curb cuts. @aria-describedat may be more equivalent to the bolt-on wheelchair elevators you sometimes see used to retrofit old staircases.
> > 
> > No, I'm not trying to characterize your views about DescribedAt.
> 
> Okay, my mistake. It may have been better to start a new thread than retitle the aria-describedat thread.
> 
> > I'm
> > extracting one issue that ends up buried in among all kinds of
> > discussion about DescribedAt as well as about Longdesc.
> > 
> > I'm trying to clearly say that this same question is emerging from other
> > contexts. I named Dpub as an additional source of additional ARIA that
> > may be even attractive to mainstream.
> > 
> >> The recommended approach (quoting from ARIA 1.0 Section 1.1):
> >> 
> > Exactly. That was 1.0..
> > 
> > We've several times said we would revisit this concept in 1.1 and
> > following. We need to do so apart from any particular feature.
> 
> I have heard Cynthia say that from time-to-time though not regarding any specific feature. 
> 
> For the record, I disagree with the idea to make ARIA change any mainstream behavior of user agents. 
> 
If the operative word is "make," I agree with that. I'm suggesting no
more than the option to do so, should someone find value in so doing.

Afaik, that's the extent of what's on the table--nothing mandatory, only
an option.

Janina

> James
> 
> 
> > Janina
> > 
> >>>> WAI-ARIA is intended to be used as a supplement for native language semantics, not a replacement. When the host language provides a feature that provides equivalent accessibility to the WAI-ARIA feature, use the host language feature. 
> >> 
> >> Using the native host language feature *is* the "curb cut" for everyone. ARIA is not, and never has been, a feature for everyone. ARIA provides amazing ability to retrofit legacy code and augment incomplete languages (including HTML) with additional accessibility semantics, but ARIA has never changed mainstream User Agent behavior. 
> >> 
> >> Case in point: tabindex. TabIndex is not part of ARIA for the same reason that @aria-describedat cannot be. It changes the behavior of the browser in a way that affects everyone, so any feature that provides this functionality MUST be part of the native host language.
> >> 
> >> James
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> It's probably the case that DescribedAt is the wrong context for this
> >>> larger policy question because it's so freighted with deeply entrenched
> >>> viewpoints and a long, contentious history in the form of HTML Longdesc.
> >>> 
> >>> However, other ARIA applications are shortly to emerge from our joint
> >>> efforts with the Digital Publishing Interest Group in the W3C which will
> >>> also raise the question of who can benefit from ARIA. This is why we
> >>> need a more widely applicable, and clearly articulated group consensus
> >>> on the question.
> >>> 
> >>> We have heard recently, and in years past the browser developers among
> >>> us say that keeping ARIA restricted to AAPIs explains much of their
> >>> success. Because there are not requirements on mainstream browsers, it's
> >>> been relatively easy to add ARIA support. Here's David Bolter on this
> >>> very question in 2012, though it, too, is hidden in discussion of
> >>> Longdesc and DescribedAt:
> >>> 
> >>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Mar/0405.html
> >>> 
> >>> My personal view is that we should probably clarify our ARIA spec
> >>> language on this point. Where we currently have language such as "user
> >>> agents should" should be broken out into something along the lines of
> >>> "mainstream user agents may implement" with respect to their own UI, and
> >>> "should provide interfaces for AT applications via AAPIs."
> >>> 
> >>> Can we perhaps separate the DescribedAt conversation along these lines?
> >>> The feature itself, vs who's expected to do what with it as a separate
> >>> conversation about who's allowed to benefit from ARIA in general?
> >>> 
> >>> Janina
> >>> 
> >>> -- 
> >>> 
> >>> Janina Sajka,	Phone:	+1.443.300.2200
> >>> 			sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net
> >>> 		Email:	janina@rednote.net
> >>> 
> >>> Linux Foundation Fellow
> >>> Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:	http://a11y.org
> >>> 
> >>> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> >>> Chair,	Protocols & Formats	http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
> >>> 	Indie UI			http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/
> >>> 
> >> 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> > Janina Sajka,	Phone:	+1.443.300.2200
> > 			sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net
> > 		Email:	janina@rednote.net
> > 
> > Linux Foundation Fellow
> > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:	http://a11y.org
> > 
> > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> > Chair,	Protocols & Formats	http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
> > 	Indie UI			http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/
> 

-- 

Janina Sajka,	Phone:	+1.443.300.2200
			sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net
		Email:	janina@rednote.net

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:	http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair,	Protocols & Formats	http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
	Indie UI			http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/

Received on Monday, 8 December 2014 20:47:11 UTC