- From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
- Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 19:21:52 +0100
- To: public-html@w3.org, wai-xtech@w3.org
aloha!
in light of recent discussion of DIALOG and DL, i would like to FORMALLY
re-submit the following 3-part proposal to the workin group:
Contents:
* PART 1. dialog/dialogue element name disambiguation
* PART 2: Proposal - D: A Single-Letter Element Name for Dialogue
* PART 3: DL Should Give Structure to, Not Generically Indicate, Dialogue
PART 1. dialog/dialogue element name disambiguation
aria-dialog versus HTML5's dialog Element
ISSUE: Currently, there is both an HTML5 element named dialog and an
ARIA role named dialog. A concern has been raised that the use of such
synonyms could be detrimental. The editor of the HTML5 draft, Ian
Hickson, has publicly stated that he is willing to change the
element's name, but also remarked that "dialog" was the best possible
choice out of the many considered by the WHAT WG, and pondered the
need for a "dialog box" element in HTML5 itself. [1.1] It has,
therefore, been proposed, that the aria role dialog retain the
spelling "d i a l o g"; that the spelling "d i a l o g" be reserved
in HTML5 for the concept of a "dialog box", thereby bringing ARIA
and HTML5 into harmony; and that the HTML5 element currently named
"d i a l o g" be cchanged to reflect the correct spelling for the
semantic use for which the element is intended, "d i a l o g u e",
which should be represented by a single letter element -- D -- to
avoid confusion and unnecessary ] code bloat.
_________________________________________________________________
ITEM 1. Reasons for Retaining aria-dialog
1. it is a term known to computer programmers and professionals when
spelled "dialog"
2. it is the preferred spelling for this construct in computer
science
A. if one uses "dialog" as a search term at the online version
of the <cite>Mirriam-Webster Dictionary</cite>, the
Merriam-Webster entry on "dialog" [1.2] lists "dialogue" as
the "main entry" [1.3], with a related entry "dialog box"
[1.4], which is a computing, not a semantic, term
3. aria-dialog already has multiple implementations; HTML5's DIALOG
element has none;
ITEM 2. Reasons for Changing HTML5's dialog Element to dialogue or D
1. "dialogue" is the preferred spelling for the semantic meaning of
the term "dialog" as currently used in the HTML5 draft;
A. references:
I. wikipedia entry on "dialog" resolves to "dialogue" [1.5]
II. the Merriam-Webster entry on "dialog" [1.6] lists
"dialogue" as the "main entry" [1.7], with a related
entry "dialog box" [1.8]
2. since there are many different contexts in which D is an
appropriate element/container, the HTML5 dialogue element demands
a role [1.9] or type attribute , in order to enable differentiation
between types of dialogue;
A. a preliminary list of predefined role or type values for
D follows:
* conversation
* dialogue (covers theater, film, fiction, where the
element is used to distinguish dialogue from other types
of content)
* transcript
References:
1.1.
http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/help-whatwg.org/2008-November/000151.html
1.2. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialog
1.3. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialogue
1.4. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialog%20box
1.5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialog
1.6. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialog
1.7. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialogue
1.8. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialog%20box
1.9. http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/RoleAttribute
=-=-=
PART 2: Proposal - D: A Single-Letter Element Name for Dialogue
Note: Interactive discussion of this proposal is conducted on the D
Element's Discussion Page [2.1].
Rationale: Since a dialogue element would be used quite often, the
shortest element name is the best element name for the semantic
concept of "dialogue".
Element Requirements
1. Dialogue, indicated by the single-letter element <D> ... </D>
should not be limited to a block-level container; instead, D should be
capable of serving as both a block level and an inline element, in
accordance with the precedent set by: INS and DEL.
Note: If it is decided that two distinct elements are needed -- one
for inline use and one for block use -- then the simplest solution
would be to use D inline (since it would be used quite often in a
document instance) and DB or DBLOCK for block use. Since dialogue is
dialogue, however, it would be preferable to have a single element to
declaratively mark dialogue, and leave the rest to native structural
elements and stylesheets. Therefore, throughout this document, D is
used to indicate a dialogue element in both inline and block level
situations.
2. There is a need for inline uses of D: Q is not an option in this
case, as the characters aren't being quoted, they are engaging in a
conversation.
<!-- begin example -->
<p>
<d class="csg">I think oysters are more beautiful than any
religion,</d> he resumed presently. <d class="csg">They not
only forgive our unkindness to them; they justify it, they incite
us to go on being perfectly horrid to them. Once they arrive at
the supper-table they seem to enter thoroughly into the spirit of
the thing. There's nothing in Christianity or Buddhism that quite
matches the sympathetic unselfishness of an oyster.</d>
</p>
<!-- end example -->
3. D provides a clear and necessary semantic marker in a
generic/foundational declarative markup language -- it provides a
declarative means of identifying text as dialogue, rather than leaving
indications of dialogue embedded in prose to be indicated with
character entity or unicode values (" or u0022 or u0027, and so
on) nor can one rely on extremely spotty implementation of the :before
and :after pseudo-elements to generate quotes (which, because they are
generated by CSS, will not be communicated to most assistive
technologies, such as screen readers, so there will be no aural
indication that a string of text is a bit of dialog as there would be
if a D element is used;
<!-- begin example of inline dialogue -->
<p><d class="f2">So, then what happened?</d> she asked in a hoarse
whisper, sliding into a secluded booth.</p>
<p><d class="m1">Well,</d> drawled Marlowe, taking his seat, <d
class="m1">that's the odd thing -- nothing happened at all...</d>
</p>
<!-- end example of inline dialogue -->
4. when used as a block level element, there needs to be a child
element of D which can declaratively mark part of the text as not
being dialog, such as stage directions, cues, description of
non-verbal action, and so on; in the following example, ND ("not
dialogue"), has been used and is being proposed to fill this need:
<!-- begin example -->
<d>
<dl>
<dt>Shopkeeper</dt>
<dd><nd>[obviously lying]</nd> Sorry, we're just closing for lunch</dd>
</dl>
</d>
<!-- end example -->
5. since there are many different contexts in which D is an
appropriate element/container, a dialogue element demands a "role"
[2.2] or "type" attribute, in order to enable differentiation between
types of dialogue; a very preliminary list of predefined role values
for D follows:
* conversation
* dialogue (covers theater, film, fiction, where the element is used
to distinguish dialogue from other types of content)
* transcript
<!-- begin example -->
<d role="transcript>
<dl>
<dt>Donegan:</dt>
<dd>Did you have any conversation with Brothman to the effect that
this information was going to the Russians?</dd>
<dt>Bentley:</dt>
<dd>I remember once he asked me if the Amtorg people l1ked what
they were getting.</dd>
<dt>Donegan:</dt>
<dd>Did you ever identify yourself to him as one who had worked for
the Amtorg?</dd>
<dt>Bentley:</dt>
<dd>No, I never had. I was introduced to him as his Communist Party
superior, and he was to give me dues and information.</dd>
<dt>Donegan:</dt>
<dd>Did he give you his Communist Party dues?</dd>
<dt>Bentley:</dt>
<dd>Yes, he did.</dd>
<dt>Donegan:</dt>
<dd>On how many occasions, would you say?</dd>
<dt>Bentley:</dt>
<dd>That would be hard to say. It wasn't every week, but it might be
roughly every month.</dd>
</dl>
</d>
<!-- end example -->
_________________________________________________________________
Related Wiki Pages
* Added Element dialog (HTML wiki) [2.3]
* dialog or dialogue (XTech wiki) [2.4]
* role Attribute for HTML5 [2.5]
_________________________________________________________________
References
2.1. http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/DDiscussion
2.2. http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/RoleAttribute
2.3. http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AddedElementDialog
2.4. http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/Dialogue
2.5. http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/RoleAttribute
=-=-=
PART 3: DL Should Give Structure to, Not Generically Indicate, Dialogue
ISSUE: Currently, the DL element is used to indicate dialogue in the
current public working draft of HTML5. Consult, for example, the
examples provided in Section 4.6.26 [3.1] which use DL to indicate
dialogue, without explicitly openening a DIALOGUE or D element.
DISCUSSION:
1. a DL is not a dialogue string, but a definition list; changing DL
to indicate dialogue is breaking backwards compatibility;
2. there is a need for DL as a definition list -- it should not be
watered down to specifically refer to dialog -- YES, dialogue can be
presented as a DL, where the DT is used to signify the speaker, and
the DD is used to contain the speaker's dialog, but that is using a DL
to give structure to the dialog, NOT a transfiguration of DL from
"definition list" to "dialogue"; such a change is unacceptable, as
definition lists are well suited to their long-established usage as
"definition lists": an efficient means of presenting information that
is often unnecessarily stuffed into gratuitous TABLE-ettes (as has
become the lamentable trend in specification publication)
EXAMPLE OF USE OF DL TO PROVIDE STRUCTURE FOR DIALOGUE:
<!-- HTML5 example of dialogue contained in a definition list,
using text from Oscar Wilde's 'Importance of Being Earnest' -->
<d role="dialogue">
<dl>
<dt>Algernon</dt>
<dd>Why is it that at a bachelor's establishment the servants
invariably drink the champagne? I ask merely for information.</dd>
<dt>Lane</dt>
<dd>I attribute it to the superior quality of the wine, sir. I have
often observed that in married households the champagne is rarely of
a first-rate brand.</dd>
<dt>Algernon</dt>
<dd>Good heavens! Is marriage so demoralising as that?</dd>
<dt>Lane</dt>
<dd>I believe it <em>is</em> a very pleasant state, sir. I have had
very little experience of it myself up to the present. I have only
been married once. That was in consequence of a misunderstanding
between myself and a young person.</dd>
</dl>
</d>
PROPOSAL:
1. definition lists should give structure to dialogue, but use of a
DL to contain dialogue is only one method of giving structure to
the dialogue.
2. that the element currently called DIALOG in the HTML5 draft be
replaced with D, a single letter element to indicate dialogue as
has been proposed. [3.2]
REFERENCES:
[3.1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/
[3.2] http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/D
* related: http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/DDiscussion
--- END OF 3-PART ISSUE/PROPOSAL ---
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as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them
with others. -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
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Gregory J. Rosmaita, oedipus@hicom.net
Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html
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Received on Thursday, 17 September 2009 18:22:31 UTC