- From: John Foliot <foliot@wats.ca>
- Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:24:42 -0700
- To: "'Ian Hickson'" <ian@hixie.ch>, <public-html@w3.org>
- Cc: "'W3C WAI-XTECH'" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
Ian Hickson wrote: > So. We need another option. > > Are there cases where the image is lacking good alt text that > wouldn't be covered by one of the following?: > > - title="" attribute on the <img> itself > - <legend> of the <figure> that contains the <img> > - heading of the section that contains the <img> > > F. We could say that for these "key content without alt text" cases, we > have the alt="" attribute omitted, but there must be at least one of the > above, and the first of the above that is present must include sufficient > information to orient the user. > > CONCLUSION: > > I've put proposal F into the spec. > > I've based this on as much objective data as possible, as described above. > If people disagree with this, I would like to encourage them to please > provide actual data to back up their opinion. <olive branch> Ian, Thank you for the detailed note regarding the @alt situation. It appears that you have succinctly summarized the issues in most of it's facets; certainly enough to be able to condense discussion. I would like to offer a few observations and comments however, in the spirit of trying to move forward with what appears to be a workable proposal. </olive branch> The first comment concerns "MUST" in the RFC2119 sense, as identified in the HTML 5 draft (2.2 Conformance requirements). Since <img> contains @alt under most scenarios foreseen, allowing it to be omitted "sometimes" is to my mind problematic. As well, WCAG 1 experience has taught us that conditional (interpretive) statements in Recommendations and Guidelines are difficult and open to abuse ("Until user-agents...") and so they should be discouraged at all times. For these reasons I believe that insisting that @alt always be present ("MUST") should be part of the specification. You could insist alt="" remain (satisfying "MUST"), knowing that the alternative method(s) proposed will over-ride the empty value of alt=""; however keeping the @alt attribute as a mandatory attribute for <img> maintains a certain "purity" of code conformance. Granted, the empty @alt does nothing for accessibility directly, but it removes the ability to be subjective here and from a "political" perspective does not back-slide on HTML 4.01 and any ground fought for and won with regards to accessibility and mandatory @alt: it is consistent with WAI direction and guidance. While I have no hard data to back this up, reading RFC2119 [http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt] is pretty straightforward and it is clear on it's definition of "MUST"; and with close to a decade of outreach and education in the web accessibility field, the "always" statement regarding @alt "feels right" and is consistent with the message that we (I) have been delivering all these years. *** The second comment concerns the alternative delivery methods proposed: you cite @title, <legend> or heading as being the carriers that provide the contextual information. I would suggest that @longdesc also be included in that list (the usefulness of @longdesc not yet being disproven ) as well as @caption, and I am curious why other methods (such as perhaps @role, or the ARIA labeledby/describedby) could not also be added to the list - providing as many options as possible to content authors allows for a more granular solution and makes it "easier" for content authors to be conformant - clearly a stated goal for HTML5. [http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueAltAttribute#line-44] At this time the data surrounding @longdesc is not sufficient to refute it's usefulness[ http://tinyurl.com/554kue], only to illustrate that to date it has been under-used or mis-used: with the release of HTML5 and this "improved" way of thinking about images and their need for being properly described, it could/would be an opportune time for the web accessibility community to focus on education surrounding the proper implementation of @longdesc (A List Apart, Smashing Magazine, numerous blogs, etc.). Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Current support for @role and labeledby/describedby is not mainstream enough to "prove" the viability of their proposed inclusion, however if the Working Group was interested in pursuing this line of option I am sure that test cases could be developed to provide some measurable data. Given that HTML5 is already adding a number of new elements and attributes, this line of pursuit is not without precedence. Sincerely, JF
Received on Tuesday, 26 August 2008 20:25:38 UTC