- From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
- Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:56:41 -0400
- To: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi>
- Cc: HTML WG <public-html@w3.org>, wai-xtech@w3.org
what is the point claiming the market has spoken, when most authors and authoring tools don't provide or promote the use of LONGDESC, the summary attribute for TABLE, and other accessibility oriented markup? that is the point of the Web Accessibility Initiative at the W3C -- to provide means for making markup as accessible as possible... the point is EQUAL ACCESS not market share... the argument that the market doesn't support accessible markup is, well, a word i probably shouldn't use in a public forum -- the so-called market for which accessibility oriented markup exists is a fraction of the overall market, but that shouldn't make our right to equal access dependent upon market forces... who would have thought, 25 years ago, that there would be curb-cuts on most street corners and ramps at most public accomodations? the argument was made then that it is too much of an economic outlay to justify the small numbers of those it would help -- and then people using strollers and shopping carts started to use them, and i doubt if the teenagers skateboarding down the ramp at my local bank know why there is a ramp there, other than for their skateboarding pleasure... markup isn't and shouldn't be a popularity contest -- i'm sure that the number of CENTER elements on the web outnumbers the uses of LONGDESC, but a need should NOT be trumped by a perceived rejection of accessibility oriented markup by the market... the lack of market share argument simply doesn't hold water when discussing accessibility and usability concerns, the market has NOT spoken; it has simply ignored the needs of those of us who couldn't use today's web without the accessibility features added to HTML 4.01 gregory. -------------------------------------------------------- Men are not against you; they are merely for themselves. -- Gene Fowler (1890-1960) -------------------------------------------------------- Gregory J. Rosmaita: oedipus@hicom.net Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html -------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Original Message ----------- From: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi> To: "Gregory J.Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net> Cc: James Graham <jg307@cam.ac.uk>, HTML WG <public-html@w3.org> Sent: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:05:10 +0300 Subject: Re: fear of "invisible metadata" [was Re: retention of summary attribute for TABLE element] > On Jun 18, 2007, at 19:01, Gregory J. Rosmaita wrote: > > >> Summary is explicitly invisible metadata and therefore is more > >> likely to be missing or inaccurate than data that is visible to > >> all UAs. > > > > 1. poor authoring practices should NOT sway or inform our decisions > > -- if > > markup is being misused, we need to be more precise in the > > definitions of > > elements and properties, > > I disagree. If a markup feature doesn't get used in the wanted > ways virtually all the time, the feature has failed in the > market. More precise definitions don't really help if a given > feature is onerous to author for or doesn't appear to yield a > benefit (as perceived by the majority of authors). A dead > letter in the spec doesn't help accessibility. > > > AND we must insist that -- just as ALT is > > required for an image -- summary be a REQUIRED attribute of the TABLE > > element > > I strongly disagree. You cannot make people provide metadata by > vehemently insisting that they do. Experience with alt suggests > that if you require a piece of data to be present for > conformance, there will be an arms race between conformance > checkers and authoring tools where the authoring tools generate > useless or harmful placeholder data that is a step more complex > than what conformance checkers can detect as a bogus placeholder. > > Making a requirement that in practice leads to polluting the > user experience with bogus placeholder data is not going to > help accessibility in practice. > > > 2. invisible to whom? > > To the majority of authors. The point is that if authors don't > notice that their documents contain wrong metadata, the wrong > data will stay there and pollute the metadata space making it > less useful. > > > what kind of logic is that? the whole damn document is > > invisible to blind users, or only partially visible to low vision > > users, > > so i think your fear of quote invisible unquote metadata is > > unfounded and > > unrealistic... > > The data that is perceptible to the author and to all users > (that is, the prose that is rendered somehow to everyone) is > the most likely to be up to date and correct. > > -- > Henri Sivonen > hsivonen@iki.fi > http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ ------- End of Original Message -------
Received on Sunday, 24 June 2007 19:57:08 UTC