Re: Example of accessible CAPTCHAS that work well

if we want to talk security and percentages - both I am qualified to do it
is a different list and nothing to do with accessibility.

An accessibility reasoning for a value judgement is short sighted and
misplaced when something is accessible according to the guidelines.

Denis - I think you made a odd statement - dump wcag 2 as it does not mean
something is accessible.  We all want a perfect world but denis as an
engineer i deal with realities and guidlines matter  - captchas are
accessible and meet guidelines. if you remove this what can i code to?

this is very simple and not complex.

cheers,
rob
On Nov 17, 2011 1:27 PM, "Denis Boudreau" <dboudreau@accessibiliteweb.com>
wrote:

> Rob,
>
> I see your point, but I feel it's a little more complicated than that.
>
> An accessible captcha is useless if it's not secure. Organizations
> wouldn't go for it and those who would be quickly be flooded with spam.
> Security and accessibility have to go hand in hand here.
>
> Also, your focus seems to be on conformance to wcag2. My focus is
> conformance AND accessibility. So I couldn't care less about a compliant
> solution, if it's still unusable by a significant portion of the population.
>
> /Denis
>
>
>
>
> On 2011-11-17, at 1:15 PM, Robert Yonaitis wrote:
>
> Denis,
>
> First I would say drop security please and deal with accessibilty alone.
> You would be making a false statement to say that if you follow wcag 2 your
> site will be accessible to every one - correct? Is captcha accessible
> within the guidelines. yes.
>
> Does anything else matter. If yes we are talking politics right. Let us
> leave this to politicians. Captchas are accessible according to wcag 2 - i
> will not address usable and they do serve a valuable real world purpose.
>
> V/R
> Rob Yonaitis
> On Nov 17, 2011 1:04 PM, "Denis Boudreau" <dboudreau@accessibiliteweb.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Rob,
>>
>> On 2011-11-17, at 11:38 AM, Robert Yonaitis wrote:
>>
>> > Personally, I have sat on the fence between technology, privacy,
>> > security and usability for a couple decades. I believe that when
>> > discussing accessibility (A11y) we need to be inclusive.  If we are
>> > saying that Captchas are not usable that is one thing. There are
>> > plenty of things that are not usable. If we are discussing if captchas
>> > can be made accessible than the answer has to be yes.
>>
>> Of course, I stand by you when it comes to inclusion. I totally agree.
>> However, I have yet to see one captcha example that actually is accessible
>> to everyone and secure enough to be a viable option. In all modesty, the
>> closest I've seen so far is our attempt at creating a device independent
>> captcha slider last year - distcha [1] - with the canadian government and
>> even that still fails a few requirements in terms of robustness...
>>
>> [1] http://tbs-sct.ircan-rican.gc.ca/projects/gcwwwcaptcha/roadmap
>>
>> Until I see one (or we come up with a solution that works perfectly), I
>> just cannot admit to it.
>>
>>
>> > The W3C Accessibility Initiatives should not be in the business of
>> > promoting or excluding individual technologies because they do not
>> > approve of their usability or features, in fact if the W3C wants a
>> > broader acceptance for their efforts they should help all technologies
>> > be accessible a great example would be ARIA.
>>
>> I disagree. I believe it IS the responsibility of the WAI to raise
>> awareness about the limitations of "solutions" like captcha and they have
>> done so in the past (refer to Matt May's note from 2005:
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/turingtest/). If not on the WAI level, then at
>> least in EOWG.
>>
>> The idea is not necessarily to say flat out that captchas are evil
>> (though they are, we're amongst ourselves, let's call a cat a cat), but at
>> the very least, not to promote it's use by suggesting a "viable solution"
>> in the GOOD/BAD demo that in fact, wouldn't necessarily be viable or
>> accessible.
>>
>> As you very well know, it's not just a matter of invoking Aria, the
>> mighty Viking goddess of opera (as depicted in WebAIM's presentations), for
>> captchas to magically work out. Aria is great, but it requires technologies
>> that support it and users who can access those technologies, two situations
>> that are far from perfect today.
>>
>> I'm all for looking into or building solutions using aria that will work
>> tomorrow (distcha again was an example of this), but in the meantime, we
>> all need a solution that actually works today, with yesterday's
>> technologies.
>>
>> And none does. So I stand my ground. ;p
>>
>>
>> > In the end captchas like
>> > them em or not can be made accessible and do serve a purpose isn't the
>> > rest simply opinion.
>>
>> Please provide me with one working example that would make me change my
>> mind. Just one. A lot of us really need it.
>>
>>
>> > I believe if the W3C started looking at things this way there would be
>> > a wider buy in amongst engineers. In the end the best document will be
>> > the inclusive document IMHO.
>>
>> I believe the W3C already does it's job. Of course, more can always be
>> done. But it's not entirely up to them to solve all the world's problems
>> too.
>>
>> If there were just a few private interests looking into captcha that
>> actually understood accessibility, we wouldn't have so many crappy
>> alternatives to captchas out there that are ust as bad (if not worse) and
>> that just keep pushing the boundaries of exclusion further and further back
>> for people with disabilities.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> /Denis
>>
>>
>>
>