Minutes of UAWG F2F D3 29 August 2013

HTML Minutes:
http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html


  [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

     User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

29 Aug 2013

    See also: [2]IRC log

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Kelly, Jan, Jim, Jeanne, Greg, Kim, ShawnHenry-guest,
           eric

    Regrets
           Simon

    Chair
           Jim Kelly

    Scribe
           allanj, jeanne, greg, Jan

Contents

      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]1.8.12 reflow - level determination
          2. [5]shawn comment delete 1.4.2
          3. [6]SH1 1.8.12 reflow
          4. [7]SH2 - 1.4.2
          5. [8]SH3 1.4.1 redux challenges, etc
      * [9]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 29 August 2013

    <AllanJ> scribe: allanj

1.8.12 reflow - level determination

    from shawn: should be A not AA

    <shawn> based on [10]http://www.tader.info/scrolling.html

      [10] http://www.tader.info/scrolling.html

    <jeanne> Today's Master document <-
    [11]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130828/MasterUAAG
    20130829.html

      [11] 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130828/MasterUAAG20130829.html

    <jeanne> Today's Master document <-
    [12]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130828/MasterUAAG
    20130829.html

      [12] 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130828/MasterUAAG20130829.html

    group feels that AA is fine, more information is welcome

shawn comment delete 1.4.2

    <shawn> [ Shawn feels discussion wihtout background is not
    useful ]

SH1 1.8.12 reflow

    sh: discussing email. understanding users with low vision and
    dyslexia and text customization

    kf: is there something else we need to consider

    sh: email was quick
    ... things need to be added
    ... complexities to consider

    kf: start smaller and work to the bigger issues

    <shawn> [13]http://www.tader.info/scrolling.html

      [13] http://www.tader.info/scrolling.html

    js: zoom is basic level A
    ... advanced zoom is AA

    sh: references research
    ... avoiding scrolling is the 3rd highest rating, 1st was text
    size
    ... EO has also been researching

    kp: scrolling is important to the RSI community also
    ... would be happy to move to A

    jr: text rescaling or whole page rescaling

    sh: mostly scaling blocks of text - separate from navigation.

    jr: text resize, rescale viewport are different
    ... this will be very hard for browser to do
    ... text, images, etc all rescale at the same time. hard to do
    without horizontal scrolling
    ... if text only ok at A, but not whole viewport

    gl: but if UA want to do reflow on viewport nothing prevents
    them from doing it.
    ... "at least text" wraps

    jr: "reflowable text content"
    ... sometimes author says "don't reflow"

    gl: could use user-stylesheets to override reflow.

    sh: this is only on html, not pdf

    gl: will not help folks with pdf

    sh: this must cover pdf

    kf: do we have implementations?

    sh: yes

    gl: 1.8.3 add ", overriding author specified wrapping settings"

    <shawn> implementation: at least Opera. plus all browsers with
    user style sheets

    <jeanne> GL: Microsoft Word draft mode, Browsers can turn off
    styling

    gl: word draft mode, in most browsers turn off styling

    <shawn> 1.8.12 delete "reflowable"

    <shawn> text content

    <jeanne> +1 to delete reflowable

    <shawn> and change to level A

    <greg> Add: ", overriding any values specified by the author."

    <greg> ("overriding" and "author" are links to the glossary.)

    pdf reflow:
    [14]http://help.adobe.com/en_US/acrobat/X/pro/using/WS58a04a822
    e3e50102bd615109794195ff-7d19.w.html

      [14] 
http://help.adobe.com/en_US/acrobat/X/pro/using/WS58a04a822e3e50102bd615109794195ff-7d19.w.html

    gl: some option, wrap to window. Word also has wrap to window

    <jeanne> 1.8.12 Reflowing Zoom:

    <jeanne> The user can specify that when text content in a
    graphical viewport rescales, it reflows so that one dimension
    of the content fits within the height or width of the viewport,
    overriding any values specified by the author. (Level AA)

    jr: this is just reflow, no reflow zoom

    <shawn> [ Shawn agrees reflow regardless of zoom]

    gl: right.

    <greg> The user can specify that text content in a graphical
    viewport reflows so that one dimension of the content fits
    within the height or width of the viewport, overriding any
    values specified by the author. (Level AA)

    gl: stem - Reflow Text

    kp: +1 to A

    gl: need to fix examples

    js: examples already talk about it.
    ... need pdf example

    <shawn> ...lines of text go beyond the visible window (or
    viewport) and people have to scroll back and forth horizontally
    to read the text. ...For some people with disabilities, it is
    impossible to adequately read and comprehend text that requires
    such scrolling. Finding and activating scrollbars, then finding
    the next words in the sentence requires more effort. This
    causes a lose of reading flow and

    <shawn> degrades comprehension, especially for people who have
    general difficulties in understanding written text....

    sh: use any of this language
    ... suggests taking out height - The user can specify that text
    content in a graphical viewport reflows so that the content
    fits within width of the viewport, overriding any values
    specified by the author.

    <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to suggest try width and check with
    Richard Ishida or other I18N folk

    <jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to check with r12a on need for vertical
    fit of 1.8.12 [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-878 - Check with r12a on need for
    vertical fit of 1.8.12 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-05].

    <jeanne> +1 for level A

    <jeanne> JR and JA for level A

    resolution: Text Reflow: The user can specify that text content
    in a graphical viewport reflows so that one dimension of the
    content fits within the height or width of the viewport,
    overriding any values specified by the author. (Level A)

    <jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to renumber 1.8.12 to Level A, and
    adjust the summary. [recorded in
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-879 - Renumber 1.8.12 to level a, and
    adjust the summary. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-05].

    gl: is turning off all styles enough, or get specific

    <greg> I'm concerned that browsers will claim they comply
    because the user can override author nowrap by turning off
    *all* author formatting, even though that may make the page
    unusable.

    jr: not an issue

    sh: good thing to consider, add to implementing--best practice
    to the wrap without changing other stuff rather than turn off
    all formatting

    js: what about on mobile, no feature to turn off all styles?

    <jeanne> 82941

SH2 - 1.4.2

    <jeanne> scribe: jeanne

    SH2: I do not think 1.4.2 Preserving Size Distinctions is
    necessary at all. I'll provide some support for that
    perspective from a survey (introduced at
    <[17]http://www.tader.info/survey1304.html>).

      [17] http://www.tader.info/survey1304.html%3E).

    <AllanJ> [18]http://www.tader.info/survey1304.html

      [18] http://www.tader.info/survey1304.html

    <AllanJ> 1.4.2 Preserving Size Distinctions:

    <AllanJ> he user can specify whether or not distinctions in the
    size of rendered text are preserved when that text is rescaled
    (e.g. headers continue to be larger than body text). (Level A)

    <AllanJ> sh: there are no implementations. may be an extension.

    <AllanJ> ... users should be able to change size at the element
    level, then this is not necessary

    <AllanJ> gl: in word, reflow to window, or draft and everything
    is same size.

    <AllanJ> js: this is something Wayne Dick proposed. this would
    make everything the same size.

    <AllanJ> sh: user can set text size then covered.

    <AllanJ> js: what have something on customizing text sizing

    <AllanJ> kp: wayne was adamant about this.

    <AllanJ> gl: reads 1.4.1, but does not get specific about
    keeping all text the same size

    <AllanJ> ... 1.4.2 extends 1.4.1

    <AllanJ> js: what about bumping it down a level?

    <AllanJ> sh: will check with wayne, then come back to it.

    <shawn> ACTION: shawn to work with Wayne on 1.4.2 [recorded in
    [19]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Error finding 'shawn'. You can review and register
    nicknames at <[20]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/users>.

      [20] http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/users%3E.

    <scribe> ACTION: jeanne will discuss with shawn and Wayne on
    1.4.2 and come back with a proposal [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-880 - Will discuss with shawn and
    wayne on 1.4.2 and come back with a proposal [on Jeanne F
    Spellman - due 2013-09-05].

    <shawn> [22]http://www.tader.info/requirements.html

      [22] http://www.tader.info/requirements.html

SH3 1.4.1 redux challenges, etc

    3. I'll have several suggestions (and challenges) for 1.4.1
    Configure Rendered Text, for example:

    3.a. I think 1.4.1 will need to be more specific -- for
    example, will need to specify range of fonts and colors to be
    available.

    3.b. I think character spacing can go down to Level AA, and
    possibly line spacing, too.

    3.c. There are several other things I suggest for Levels A, AA,
    and AAA.

    <AllanJ> sh: element level customization is most important.

    <shawn> Element [type] level Customization
    [23]http://www.tader.info/element-level.html

      [23] http://www.tader.info/element-level.html

    <AllanJ> gl: element type customization

    <AllanJ> does user styles cover this

    <AllanJ> sh: yes

    <AllanJ> gl: yes for html, but not for pdf (no user style
    sheets)

    <AllanJ> sh: the point is PDF would have to do this.

    <AllanJ> ... pdf has tags, can structure those to control
    presentation

    <Eric> Eric needs to leave. Will return later

    <AllanJ> kf: pushback, this seems aspirational

    <AllanJ> gl: things that implement stylesheets could easily
    comply.

    <AllanJ> sh: lets all things with no stylesheets less
    accessible

    <AllanJ> kp: if we had SC wording and IER would be helpful

    <AllanJ> ... if we have a proposal we can take it up next week,

    <AllanJ> kp: have lots of questions.

    <AllanJ> kf: this will take TIME, must be last call in Sept

    <AllanJ> js: will work with shawn to get it done

    <AllanJ> kp: want user perspective, good examples - use cases

    <shawn> [24]http://www.tader.info/element-level.html

      [24] http://www.tader.info/element-level.html

    <AllanJ> sh: importance of printing customized text. I
    increased font size I want to print them.

    <AllanJ> kf: need fully baked proposals

    <AllanJ> ja: no printing SC currently (loosing text on left
    edge of page is issue), was deferred to UAAG next

    <AllanJ> sh: in 1.4.1

    <AllanJ> ... what if browser only offers 2 sizes

    <AllanJ> ja: for browser they already do with current settings,
    and user style sheets

    <AllanJ> gl: this doesn't cover other user agents

    <AllanJ> sh: you have to do this

    <AllanJ> ... for AA need to choose line spacing at 1, 1.5 and 2

    <AllanJ> ... AAA character spacing in .1 ems

    <AllanJ> gl: want a minimum set

    <AllanJ> sh: yes have a draft ready

    <AllanJ> ... need to be more specific, will be a challenge

    <shawn> [25]http://www.tader.info/requirements.html#lnspace

      [25] http://www.tader.info/requirements.html#lnspace

    <AllanJ> sh: actual increments, points, ems, %% need more
    research

    <AllanJ> ... perhaps this is not necessary

    <AllanJ> ... browsers, pdf, etc already do increments

    <AllanJ> ... are there other UAs (ebooks, closed systems, etc)
    that this would need to apply to.

    <AllanJ> sh: color contrast (f/b). best for users, easiest for
    wording

    <AllanJ> ... users can select f/b color from the palet of the
    OS.

    <AllanJ> what about things without an OS.

    <AllanJ> what about a devise (ebook reader) without OS

    <AllanJ> gl: this thing runs on hardware

    <AllanJ> js: kindle on IOS allows no color changes

    <AllanJ> sh: if UAAG applies other devices then you need to
    word to include these devices

    <AllanJ> js: uaag would apply to these type of apps

    <AllanJ> jr: epub is webbased

    <AllanJ> gl: kindle app for IOS UA or not UA

    <AllanJ> kp: yes it is

    <AllanJ> kp: caution, industry may push back

    <Eric> Eric has returned

    <AllanJ> gl: edge case, need to call out in definition of UA,
    include ereaders as example

    <AllanJ> sh: you have to be able to choose color from OS

    <AllanJ> gl: don't say OS we say platform...hardware, os, other
    layers.

    <AllanJ> sh: fonts?

    <AllanJ> sh: need 2 serif, 2 sans-serif fonts

    <AllanJ> jr: these seem to be edge cases

    <AllanJ> sh: go with the simple

    <greg> I think Shawn is saying that the SC would set no minimum
    on UA in the marginal case of where there is no OS, so not
    platform-supported fonts. The UA would provide it's own fonts,
    and there would be no minimal set specified by the SC.

    <greg> Scribe: greg

    Greg: The correct way to word it would probably in the form of
    "the set of system fonts, or this specified set, whichever is
    larger".

    <jeanne> JS: The real problem is not when there are no system
    fonts, it is the platforms that do not expose the fonts to the
    applications

    <shawn> shawn encourages you to read:

    <shawn> * Text Customization for Readability
    <[26]http://www.tader.info/index.html>

      [26] http://www.tader.info/index.html%3E

    <shawn> * Understanding Users' Needs to Customize Text Display
    <[27]http://www.tader.info/understanding.html>

      [27] http://www.tader.info/understanding.html%3E

    Discussion of priorities for the remaining time today.

    <Eric> Eric signing off

    <jeanne> [28]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/UAAG20/

      [28] http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/UAAG20/

    <jeanne> 5.1.2 Intent - new

    Most content specifications include features important to users
    with disabilities. Users may find it difficult or impossible to
    use a product that fails to support those features. Conformance
    claim documents list the technologies that the user agent fully
    supports, such as WAI-ARIA, so that users can make informed
    decisions about whether or not they will be able to use, and
    therefore should...

    scribe: install, a new product or version of that product.

    <jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to convert links to the W3C format for
    Bibliographies [recorded in
    [29]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action05]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-881 - Convert links to the w3c format
    for bibliographies [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-05].

    <jeanne> Today's Master doc <-
    [30]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130828/MasterUAAG
    20130829.html

      [30] 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130828/MasterUAAG20130829.html

    <jeanne> ACTION: Kelly to address with UAWG adding
    "description" to 4.1.6 (KF, see review notes from F2F day 3)
    [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action06]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-882 - Address with uawg adding
    "description" to 4.1.6 (kf, see review notes from f2f day 3)
    [on Kelly Ford - due 2013-09-05].

    <jeanne> ACTION: Kelly to bring up SC 3.2.5 Settings Change
    Confirmation to the group. [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action07]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-883 - Bring up sc 3.2.5 settings
    change confirmation to the group. [on Kelly Ford - due
    2013-09-05].

    <kford> We need to fix this sentence.

    <kford> 'While it may improve accessibility for some users on
    some pages to have the page to***delete*** set focus to
    specific link***s*** or field***s*** when the page loads, it
    can also be detrimental for some users, and therefore users
    need to***delete*** control of this behavior.

    <Jan> Unrecognizable content: When success criteria require
    authoring tools to treat web content according to semantic
    criteria, the success criteria do not apply when these
    semantics are missing (e.g., text that describes an image is
    only considered to be a text alternative when this role is
    encoded within markup).

    <Jan> [33]http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/ATAG20/#part_a

      [33] http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/ATAG20/#part_a

    <Jan>
    [34]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130827/MasterUAAG
    20130828.html#def-recognize

      [34] 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130827/MasterUAAG20130828.html#def-recognize

    <AllanJ> js: put this information from the definition in the
    introduction and link to the defintion of recognize

    <Jan> UAAG 2.0 success criteria only apply to web content that
    can be *recognized*.

    <Jan> UAAG 2.0 success criteria only apply to web content that
    can be *recognized* by user agents.

    <AllanJ> put this in a new section

    User agents are not expected to comply with success criteria
    when content document does not include information needed to
    satisfy the criteria (e.g. neither HTML nor video metadata
    provide any way to notify a user agent that a video contains
    flashing images, keyboard shortcuts are implemented using
    Javascript so they are invisible to the user agent, or an
    author denotes a heading only with...

    scribe: larger font rather than heading tags).

    <jeanne>
    [35]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130827/MasterUAAG
    20130829.html

      [35] 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130827/MasterUAAG20130829.html

    <jeanne>
    [36]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130828/MasterUAAG
    20130829.html

      [36] 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130828/MasterUAAG20130829.html

    <Jan> scribe: Jan

    Things still to do

    Reconcile table of contents

    Consistent stems list (Kim)

    Fix resources at end of document (Jeanne)

    Read the glossary (Everyone)

    Finish making editorial comments (e.g. from EO) (Jeanne)

    Reply to all outstanding comments (Jeanne)

    Renumbering SCs because they changed priority (Jeanne)

    Bibliography (Jeanne)

    Any other applicability notes to address (Jan)

    Kim can reconcile Table of contents

    JS: Aiming for Sept 24

    Look up links in Resources

    CSS changes to look more like ATAG2 but with WCAG2 type spacing
    (Jan)

    Kelly to finish GL's 1 and 2 ("sanity check")

    <AllanJ> removing @@ from doc-- still some floating around

    Resolution: the Last Call will be 6 weeks

    <AllanJ> priorities:

    <AllanJ> table of contents

    <AllanJ> stems

    <AllanJ> proof glossary

    <AllanJ> css changes - jan

    Look through open action items (Kelly)

    <AllanJ> close action-798 8/29/2013

    <AllanJ> close action-798

    <trackbot> Closed action-798.

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: jeanne to check with r12a on need for vertical
    fit of 1.8.12 [recorded in
    [37]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: jeanne to convert links to the W3C format for
    Bibliographies [recorded in
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: jeanne to renumber 1.8.12 to Level A, and adjust
    the summary. [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: jeanne will discuss with shawn and Wayne on 1.4.2
    and come back with a proposal [recorded in
    [40]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Kelly to address with UAWG adding "description"
    to 4.1.6 (KF, see review notes from F2F day 3) [recorded in
    [41]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action06]
    [NEW] ACTION: Kelly to bring up SC 3.2.5 Settings Change
    Confirmation to the group. [recorded in
    [42]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action07]
    [NEW] ACTION: shawn to work with Wayne on 1.4.2 [recorded in
    [43]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/29-ua-minutes.html#action03]

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________

Received on Friday, 30 August 2013 18:23:03 UTC