- From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
- Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 20:17:38 +0100
- To: w3c-wai-ua@w3.org
- Message-Id: <20100909191558.M27111@hicom.net>
aloha!
minutes from the 9 September 2010 UAWG weekly teleconference can be
accessed as hypertext from:
http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html
as an IRC log from:
http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-irc
and as plain text following my signature -- please report any errors,
mis-attributions, clarifications, corrections and the like by
replying-to this announcement on-list...
note that the following RESOLUTIONS were logged at the 2010-09-09
UAWG telecon:
resolution: address bug 8647 in UAAG 2.0
resolution: UAAG will not take up bug 8666 -- covered by UAAG
already
resolution: bug 8682 is a UAAG issue, not an HTML5 issue; need to
discuss need for indicator for when author provided context menu
different from standard context menu
resolution: bug 8743 (auditory icons clashing with AT) is a UA
issue; UAAG should highlight user control over such events
and that the following new action items were assigned:
* ACTION-446: kford to look at longdesc issue with Gregory. Other
also indicating they will look.
* http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html#action01
* http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/446
* ACTION-447: Gregory - send proposed bug report on IFRAME and FRAME
requesting that @title be required (used by AT to identify FRAMEs
and IFRAMEs to user)
* http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html#action02
* http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/447
* ACTION-448: Jim to review notification of existence of author
context menu see bug 8682
* http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html#action03
* http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/448
* ACTION-449: Greg - work with GJR to write up wording to address
bug 8751 so that highlight that it is allowed and not prohibited for
HTML WG [recorded in
* http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html#action04
* http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/449
special thanks to kelly for scribing when i spoke, gregory.
_________________________________________________________
- DRAFT -
User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
09 Sep 2010
See also: IRC log http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-irc
Attendees
Present
AllanJ, Greg, Gregory_Rosmaita, Jan, Jeanne, KimPatch, kford,
sharper
Regrets
Chair
JimAllan_KellyFord
Scribe
Gregory_Rosmaita
Contents
* Topics
1. Announcements
2. Accesskey Replacement Requirements
3. Verbose Descriptor Requirements (longdesc versus
enhanced native describedby)
4. HTML A11Y bugs relating to UA from Michael Cooper -
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0061.html
5. Writer's Surveys
6. Browser Implementations
* Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 09 September 2010
<oedipus_away> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
<oedipus_away> scribenick: oedipus
<kford> we should take up the browser item last, I think that is
item 5.
Announcements
JA: take up agendum 5 first -- HTML WG deadline for bug submission
2010-10-01
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0074.html
GJR: full details of HTML5 timeline:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0074.html
Accesskey Replacement Requirements
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements
<inserted> scribenick: kford
Gregory: I need to work with folks to get an access key replacement.
... There were 9 requirements from PFWG and I've logged various
replies on a wiki page.
... I need to finish the process of going through 4.1 and making
sure it reflects all the requirements that PF has.
... Does that seem like a reasonale process?
JA: Yes.
Gregory asks if there other places in UAAG to look.
Group replying we do not think so but can check again.
Group now thinking need to look under some parts of perceivable
section.
Gregory: I'll break this down and hopefully we can discuss this next
week.
<Greg> Here is the SC about presenting shortcut keys: 4.1.6 Present
Direct Commands in Rendered Content: The user can have any
recognized direct commands (e.g. accesskey) in rendered content be
presented with their associated elements (e.g. "[Ctrl+t]" displayed
after a link whose accesskey value is "t", or an audio browser
reading the value or label of a form control followed by "accesskey
control...
<Greg> ...plus t"). (Level A)
Verbose Descriptor Requirements (longdesc versus enhanced native
describedby)
<oedipus> longdesc:
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs - HTML A11y
TF to determine if shoud be logged as issue (since there is no
mechanism currently in HTML5 that provides for a verbose descriptor)
or as a bug
Gregory, as everyoe knows, longdesc has been removed from HTML5.
Currently, no replacement for a verbose descriptor.
Gregory: Would be good if people could review requirements.
<oedipus> 1. A programmatic mechanism to reference a specific set of
structured content, internal (enhanced describedby model) or
external (HTML4 longdesc model) to the document containing the
described image.
<oedipus> 2. A way to inform users and authors that a description is
present/available.
<oedipus> 3. A device independent way to access the descriptive
content.
<oedipus> 4. An explicit provision that accessing descriptive
content, whether internal or external to the document containing the
image, does NOT take the user away from the user's position in the
document containing the image where the verbose descriptor was
invoked;
<oedipus> 5. A way to provide user control over exposition of the
descriptor so that rendering of the image and its description is not
an either/or proposition. (A visual indicator of the description
should NOT be a forced visual encumbrance on sighted users by
default).
<oedipus> 6. A method to reference a longer description of an image,
without including the content in the main flow of a page.
Gregory: Two possibilities. Keep longdesc with some adjustment.
... Other possibility is aria describedby
... Each of these has limitations.
... Bugs have been filed on this.
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10455
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10017
<oedipus> jeanne, bugzilla bug
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10525
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs
<scribe> ACTION: kford to look at longdesc issue with Gregory. Other
also indicating they will look. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-446 - Look at longdesc issue with Gregory.
Other also indicating they will look. [on Kelly Ford - due
2010-09-16].
HTML A11Y bugs relating to UA from Michael Cooper -
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0061.html
<inserted> scribenick: oedipus
JA: reply not made to list yet
... sent message to list -- 5 bugs reported by HTML A11y TF as UAWG
concerns
... first: 8647 - tab order for IFRAME (when IFRAME processed, tab
order in doc should be outside iframe, when get into iframe follow
its tab order, when move off iframe, resume tab order at next tab
following last tab that put user in iframe
... might be similar to flash issues where things get inserted in
DOM tree -- tab into and tab out into regular content and document
flow
... compound document implications
... question: in IE and FF can use F6 to move between frames on
windows platform -- if in IFRAME should be able to use F6 to jump
from IFrame to main content
GL: F6 is cycle through frames -- don't know if concept of main
frame / parent exists
... main viewport in which other viewports are contained
KF: what if have page with 2 frames but no iframe
KP: important to have a sure thing -- if toggling between things
cannot do command to go to place x and do something
JA: can with AT
KP: cannot do it with speech with a toggle
... useful to have command to put to known place
... really useful thing to be able to directly get to a known place
KF: IE design philosophy -- F6 is a pane-cycling key -- ALT+D
(address bar) is known place to return
... if use SHIFT+F6 to navigate panes in reverse
q
<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say need aria role=iframe
GJR: aria role=iframe that would make the iframe a landmark that
could be easily navigated to
JA: seems like overkill -- iframe just another type of frame -- can
use F6 to jump between iframe
... iframe should show up as part of frames list -- 1 less thing for
author to have to do and get wrong
KF: address in HTML5 or in UAAG?
JA: this is one that UAAG needs to address unless go with
role=iframe
GJR: role=iframe is a non-starter -- already have a last call draft
in place
... there has been talk of ARIA 1.1 as opposed to waiting for ARIA
2.0 for which there is an extensive wish list
JA: recommend adding GL to UAAG if don't already have one
proposed resolution: address bug 8647 in UAAG 2.0
resolution: address bug 8647 in UAAG 2.0
JA: next bug title attribute on iframe
... suggest including advice on having title on IFRAME for
navigation
... HTML4 had @name ATs used to identify iframe to user
... AT or other mechanism could use @name -- issue: @name is not
required -- if were would be beneficial
GJR: didn't @name get deprecated in favor of @id
JA: name attribute required?
KF: this is on iframe specifically?
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/IFRAME
KF: @name becomes title for embedded document
JA: HomePageReader used to go to URI of IFRAME src and pull out its
TITLE -- otherwise used @name value
... what to do?
... iframe should be treated as frames and use a11y stuff used for
frames -- UAAG should address how to handle FRAME and IFRAME --
would be nice if @name was required -- right now @name, @id, and
@title are optional
KF: for a11y want to use @title versus @name -- @name programmatic
concept
... don't think is specific thing UAAG needs to tell HTML5 to change
GJR: can file a bug stating that @title should be required on IFRAME
and FRAMES
JA: that would solve a whole host of issues
GJR: what i will i will send a proposed bug report to ua list and
then we can discuss before i log it in the HTML5 bug tracker
<scribe> ACTION: Gregory - send proposed bug report on IFRAME and
FRAME requesting that @title be required (used by AT to identify
FRAMEs and IFRAMEs to user) [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-447 - - send proposed bug report on IFRAME
and FRAME requesting that @title be required (used by AT to identify
FRAMEs and IFRAMEs to user) [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2010-09-16].
GL: could use a DIV for everything an IFRAME couldn't one?
... can set flow attribute to auto -- IFRAME has fixed size
JS: DIV won't let you embed external document
GJR: points out some issues with iframe resizing -- have to use
sandbox attribute
<Greg> From the user perspective there is no difference...
JA: date picker -- a11y concerns expressed for date picker applies
to almost everything
KF: question to ask ourselves is do we give enough guidance in SC to
make controls accessible?
JA: have that in "everything should be keyboard accessible"
proposed resolution: UAAG will not take up bug 8666 -- covered by
UAAG already
resolution: UAAG will not take up bug 8666 -- covered by UAAG
already
JA: bug 8682 - tab and reading order for context menus
... should be defined in spec to clarify usage; editor says "don't
understand is a platform specific issue"
... addition of context menu into native context menu of particular
item or provide one for the user when not provided
... for UAAG, use arrow keys in windows to move through context menu
after opening
... do we need an indicator for when author provided context menu
different from standard context menu
... think this is a UAAG issue and not an HTML5 issue
KF: agree
... should discuss need for indicator
JA: any disagreement that is UAAG issue and not HTML issue?
resolution: bug 8682 is a UAAG issue, not an HTML5 issue; need to
discuss need for indicator for when author provided context menu
different from standard context menu
<AllanJ> ACTION: Jim to review notification of existence of author
context menu see bug 8682 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-448 - Review notification of existence of
author context menu see bug 8682 [on Jim Allan - due 2010-09-16].
JA: bug 8743 --- auditory icons clashing with AT
... icons in HEAD of document could be visual/aural/olfactory/etc.
... are auditory icons meant to be played by UA when page loads
... HTML editor said how icons displayed and act is a UA issue
... agree with editor -- how UA should handle auditory icons should
be handled by UA under user control
KF: agree
GL: 1 concern: don't disagree, but when HTML spec defines something
but doesn't define how to be used, get diff implementations from
different browser devs
... similar to issue with @title -- how to expose?
... personally think is bad not to provide some guidance as to how
can be used
... UAAG should outline user control over auditory events
JA: sounds like another configuration thing
GJR: user should be able to decide how things are done (per instance
or as universal setting)
resolution: bug 8743 (auditory icons clashing with AT) is a UA
issue; UAAG should highlight user control over such events
issue: bug 8743 (auditory icons clashing with AT) is a UA issue;
UAAG should highlight user control over such events
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-73 - Bug 8743 (auditory icons clashing with
AT) is a UA issue; UAAG should highlight user control over such
events ; please complete additional details at
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/73/edit .
JA: last bug 8751 - user should have ability to override automatic
scrolling
... can use HTML5 to scroll element into view -- when detected,
supposed to put element into viewport
... should be way for user to override automatic scrolling because
auto-scroll may entail much more work on part of user
... editor said scrolling req is a SHOULD not a MUST -- must bring
to user's attention but agnostic on how should be done
... this is a specific scripting thing being added to HTML5
affecting UA behavior
... if in HTML5, may know what is being done and how to control
<AllanJ>
http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/editing.html#scrolling-elements-into-view
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8751
JA: if it is in HTML5, UA should know what is going on, so UA should
have ability to control whether happens automatically or only on
specific request
... if just javascript, UA won't have a clue -- should ask author to
assign ARIA politeness level to it so user can make decision to auto
scroll or not
... HTML5 has hundreds of these javascript "standardization"
... should all of this stuff in HTML5 will inform what UAs will do
with DOM manipulation or will it go into javascripted black hole
JR: dont' mention focus -- strange
GL: think that is intentional
JA: scrolls whole object into view but doesn't put programmatic
foucus on object
JR: doing something that will cause user's attention to it, but
haven't moved focus
GL: use case: have 2 panes -- 1 where user is working, 1 where info
about background tasks; want to scroll 1 pane into view without
causing focus to move so user can return to pane 1
KP: googledocs - when delete or paste, jumps to top of doc;
WordPress - if delete comment from bottom, jumps to the top, so have
to delete them one-by-one
JR: this could be a fix for that?
KP: if user could say "don't move my focus"
GJR: KP are you saying "don't move focus, but you can move my
viewport if you bring me back to original focus?
GL: document will be taken by devs as instructing them to scroll in
all cases -- title is "scroll into view" and states SHOULD scroll
(although non-normative) -- key part is MUST focus but doesn't state
how
... acknowledge that user settings may change behavior -- most
authors will never read UAAG so would be good to have in HTML5
directly
KF: if we want something need to propose a change
JS: most effective way to get done is propose a change
GJR: 2 steps: 1 log bugs - 2. write change proposal for HTML WG
<Greg> It would be NICE but not absolutely required for the HTML
document to acknowledge that user preference settings can change how
this is handled. We can and should put it in UAAG but many
developers won't read it.
JS: need to reopen bugs
GJR: need to take bug 8751 and put them in a change proposal on HTML
WG wiki
KP: user settings can affect this
GL: would prefer them to change wording slightly so that more
context available before user starts scroll
... if can find implementations should at least make recommendation;
wording in a number of places could allow for that rather than
seeming to prohibit it
JA: could you write something up on this GL?
... please work with GJR on this
<scribe> ACTION: Greg - work with GJR to write up wording to address
bug 8751 so that highlight that it is allowed and not prohibited for
HTML WG [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-449 - - work with GJR to write up wording
to address bug 8751 so that highlight that it is allowed and not
prohibited for HTML WG [on Greg Lowney - due 2010-09-16].
<Greg> Also, it would be nice for the HTML5 document to acknowledge
that user preference settings could let the user specify the size of
a buffer around the edge of the viewport such that when scrolling to
found etc. content that content would not appear at the very edge of
the viewport, but instead inset somewhat so the user can see more
context around it without having to scroll. UAAG20 could...
<Greg> ...include a low-priority recommendation (e.g. Level AAA)
that UA provide such a setting.
JR: author wants info of use to user -- want attention to be on
object x -- for mouse user bringing something into middle of
viewport, makes easy to mouse links -- if focus left behind, then
those links are no closer for non-mouse user
... if telling people attention should be here, focus should be here
too?
GJR: will author use HTML5 details element or aria-dialog?
JR: like 2 pane work use case -- if second pane isn't allowed to
scroll, not getting full functionality
KP: can you fix if author broke it
JA: could be user setting -- if viewport moves, have focus move with
it
GL: what authors want to do is move focus, not scroll into view
... when author explicitly does not want to move focus, would be
useful to retain focus in one pane while providing viewport for
second
<Greg> The HTML5 document should probably give more guidance on when
authors would use scrollIntoView vs. moving the focus (which also
scrolls things into view in the default configuration). Authors
should almost always move the focus rather than using scollIntoView,
except in very specific circumstances where they REALLY want to
bring something to the user's attention WITHOUT stealing the
keyboard...
<Greg> ...focus.
KP: best case - user gets info - if overriden, notify getting
something different;
JR: "before you use scroll into view, make sure you do not want to
move focus..."
... "scroll element into view without moving focus to element"
JA: are we covered?
GJR: are we also saying "don't move focus, but you can move my
viewport if you bring me back to original focus?
JA: GL 3.10 "help user to use viewports and orient within them"
... indicate viewport position -- all in GL 3.10
... have a lot of that covered
investigate scrollIntoView crossover with ARIA politeness levels and
live regions
JA: can scrollIntoView be first thing on page so user is placed in
middle of document?
... example: google search puts focus in edit box
... propose Greg and Gregory get wording ready to submit to HTML5 --
find out what is response, then follow up if needed
... need to remember to bump up GL 3.10 to make sure that cover this
in implementation of viewports
FIVE MINUTE WARNING
Writer's Surveys
JA: where to start?
... don't know if have enough time to get to any of them
KF: take up next week with survey 3
Browser Implementations
KF: would like WG review of all success criteria -- think we are
close, but when reviewed ATAG, noticed that drafting very crisp --
where can UAAG 2.0 be tightened up especially in regards SC
JR: ATAG got major feedback -- may have to cycle back to WD --
cautionary tale for UAAG 2.0
KF: GL you have ATAG comments?
GL: yes, need to divide between high priority and regular priority
... submit as go or wait for comprehensive feedback
JR: would like to get as much feedback as soon as possible -- AUWG
having F2F next week to process LC issues
... stabilization draft feedback is what we need
... people have pavlovian response to the term "Last Call"
JS: getting other WAI groups feedback before LC is key
JR: UAAG feedback to AUWG good --
... also received substantive issues from other sources, which is
why may have to cycle back through another PWD and another LC
[ADJOURN]
jeanne, the bug on bugzilla is:
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10525
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Greg - work with GJR to write up wording to address
bug 8751 so that highlight that it is allowed and not prohibited for
HTML WG [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Gregory - send proposed bug report on IFRAME and FRAME
requesting that @title be required (used by AT to identify FRAMEs
and IFRAMEs to user) [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Jim to review notification of existence of author
context menu see bug 8682 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: kford to look at longdesc issue with Gregory. Other
also indicating they will look. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Received on Thursday, 9 September 2010 19:18:10 UTC