- From: Jeanne Spellman <jeanne@w3.org>
- Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:03:53 -0800
- To: User Agent Working Group <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Minutes
http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-ua-minutes
IRC Log
http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-ua-irc
Text of Minutes
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
06 Nov 2009
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-ua-irc
Attendees
Present
Kelly_Ford, Kim_Patch, Jim_Allan, Mark_Hakkenin,
Jeanne_Spellman, observing-Michael_Cooper, Shadi, Andrew,
Sally
Regrets
Greg_Lowney
Chair
Kelly, Jim
Scribe
kford, jeanne
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]ERT
2. [5]Ageing
3. [6]Understanding
4. [7]5.1
5. [8]5.2
6. [9]5.3
* [10]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 06 November 2009
<jeanne> [11]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20091105/
[11] http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20091105/
<kford> Scribe: kford
Kim Patch giving demonstration of browsing by voice.
Kim: I'm closing some windows.
Enters some voice commands.
Kim: I can combine things.
Says "w3c site".
Browser launches to W3C page.
Kim dictates a few more sites and pages open in new tabs.
Demonstrates how she adds a new site by saying add site, giving site
name.
Kim: I'll show you a little bit of getting around a site.
says 2 tab back, 1 tab forward and releated commands.
Demonstrates link activation with a firefox extension that numbers
links. Dictate link number and link is activated.
Trying test on a twitter page example.
Continue demo, look at example on
[12]http://twitter.com/goodies/widgets where links are not actual
links.
[12] http://twitter.com/goodies/widgets
Kimdemonstrates feature of her application where you can add
coordinates of the screen to be activated by voice.
Introductions all around. Shadi and Andrew are members of other W3C
groups.
Kim demonstrates more touch click actions, where multiple touch
actions are combined.
Demonstration of form completion with speech.
MC: I work on PF and HTML. HTML 5 group has become large. Much
communication on e-mail. Accessibility issues very personal but
others lack some context.
... Some mishearing of each other.
... On the other hand a lot of accessibility in HTML5 because it is
the language of the web.
... There is an opportunity to address issues that were never
addressed in 4.
... Also many new features that need accessibility attention.
... We've created an HTML 5 task force to help here comprised of PF
and HTML5 people. Opportunity to build credibility.
... As of yesterday has leaders from both groups.
... Hope to have a call for participation today or Monday.
Will have to be a formal member of the HTML 5 group.
<MichaelC> --> [13]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force HTML
Accessibility Task Force
[13] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force
<MichaelC> --> [14]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/HTML_Task_Force
HTML Accessibility Task Force wiki
[14] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/HTML_Task_Force
<MichaelC> -->
[15]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG&keywor
ds=a11y HTML accessibility issues
[15]
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG&keywords=a11y
<jallan> KF: How can UAWG help?
<jallan> ...HTML5 seems to be close to a UA spec. should we work
through PF?
<jallan> MC: html5 is monolithic. covering many areas. some advocate
for splitting into specific areas (e.g. authoring, etc).
MC: HTML 5 is really a lot of content.
<jallan> ...no suggestion for breaking out UA specs
Authoring, UAAG and more.
Some discussion of splitting things out into separate specs.
MC: Don't think HTML5 would be objectionable but probably have to
come with an editor.
<jallan> objectionable to UA split out without an editor
More discussion about how UAAG and HTML5 work together.
MC: UAAG and PF need to work more closely.
<jallan> should UA have a rep on the TaskForce
<jallan> MC: Yes. need UA perspective
<jallan> ...good synergy to find things missing in own spec when
working on other specs
More talk about HTML5, ARIA and general coordination issues.
MC: End goal is that the host language drives accessibility, ARIA
used when host language doesn't do enough.
Talk about ARIA, HTML5 and tool kits. Important to get these to do
things right.
Talk about the black hole of Javascript.
What can we do at the script level to drive accessibility.
possible wai coor items.
uaag and html.
accessibility api for script.
PF coordination with UAAG.
sharing of technical knowledge.
ERT
<mth> fyi ... the video group is talking about codecs at present.
not a11y
<jeanne> shadi: ERT works on the the language to exchange
information about evaluation and tools. Accessibility needs many
different tools and EARL can bring those together.
<jeanne> ...EARL is meta data so it could be an annotation resource
that browsers that can do things with: e.g. you can search for web
pages that are keyboard accessible. there are use cases, we are
monitoring the work being done with Dublin Core, but we aren't
working actively on it.
<jeanne> ...WCAG Tools Test Sample Development. A test suite for
WCAG.
<jeanne> ... there is some resistence to calling it a Test Suite,
because "suite" implies a pass/fail, but Samples have a wider
variety of possible answers.
<jeanne> ... it would provide a resource for tests with specific
Techniques.
<jeanne> ... if there is a mapping betweeen WCAG techniques and UAAG
techniques, where WCAG could say this is what the content looks
like, ATAG could say this is what the author writes, and UAAG could
say what the user should experience.
<jeanne> jeanne: Since UAAG will need to write a test suite for
Candidate Recommendation, what advice could you give us
<jeanne> Shadi: it is a series of XML files. THis is a way you could
make it machine testable. Like H37 may be alt text for the submit
button. So if UAAG was testing for a submit button, they could use
the WCAG files, but we could need more specific UAAG files.
<jeanne> ... but it could cause problems if WCAG changed their file,
but that could be worked with
<shadi> [16]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tests/
[16] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tests/
<shadi> [17]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tests/WebInterface/
[17] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tests/WebInterface/
<jeanne> shadi: [shows the WCAG Test Samples pages]
<jeanne> scribe: jeanne
scribe: we haven't been able to publically publish the tests. We
need some people to help us do the last mile to get it finished.
Andrew: The review process is good, but it doesn't scale to 10,000
tests, if a major company gave us 10,000 tests.
... it needs peer review. It takes about 20 minutes per test sample
presently to accept it.
Michael: ARIA will have several hundred tests.
shadi: we are still doing quality review, let me know. [laughter]
... a test can only relate to one technique, so if it applies to
several success criteria, then the test has to be copied.
... but reducing it to one technique, it simplifies the review of
the test.
Ageing
<andrewA> -> WAI-AGE project page [18]http://www.w3.org/WAI/WAI-AGE/
[18] http://www.w3.org/WAI/WAI-AGE/
Shadi: The WAI-AGE project is a W3C/WAI project funded by the
European Commission. It compares how accessibility
recommendations/requirements compare to what is needed for ageing.
... conclusions are drawn between accessibility and usability, that
are not helpful overall -- like a conclusion that a font size should
be 12 pt, rather than a font size should be flexible.
Andrew: Like the default font size should be the user's default font
size.
Shadi: there is overlap between user agents and ageing needs. Like
font size widgets are recommended because many users (and trainers)
do not know how to increase default sizes in the browsers.
... more intuitive browser design is desireable, so it is easier to
find the features
Andrew: many older people do not admit that they have a disability,
because their impairment may have developed over years, or in
combination with other problems.
Kelly: We recommend an accessibility preference wizard
Andrew: Should we even call it an accessibility wizard? Or just a
customization wizard that includes accessibiliyt features. Many
people do not want to think that they need accessibility.
Shadi: There are the necessary techniques for font size, but there
are advisory techniques that are just good to do.
Kim: The ease of use label makes it more likely that people will
find the customization features. It would be very useful to be able
to see an outline of a page in a very tiny size and expand it again
in a singe click for speech users.
Michael: The issue is that the user may have a preferred font size
and the author has a different one, but the author defines all the
relationships in his preferred font size. You can't override
individual font sizes.
... if there was a CSS attribute for the user's default font size,
that would help things considerably.
Andrew: There are a lot of usability things that have come out that
are good for everyone, but they are included in WCAG because they
are particularly userful for older people.
Understanding
todays new master document:
[19]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20091106/Ma
sterUAAG20091106.html
[19]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20091106/MasterUAAG20091106.html
<kford> Group looking at section 5 on understandability.
<kford> Jeanne shows example technique from yesterday on sequential
navigation.
<kford> kford: How would we summarize main points about
"understandable" in wcag and au?
<kford> MC: WCAG talks about language, words AT might not know how
to pronounce, jargon, reading level.
<kford> MC: We talk about pronunciation. screen reader tough with
content.
<kford> Mistake avoidance, predictable.
<kford> Jeanne: mistake correction, good documentation.
<kford> Jeanne recaps currnet UA 5.
<kford> Andrew: the one that I see missing that is in ATAG is about
appropriate language. Don't assume everyone has a doctorate.
<kford> Kim: We've talked about predictable with focus but maybe we
need to address further.
<kford> If you are expecting one thing and something else happens.
<kford> Shadi: how does this relate to some of the security work?
Kelly: Understandable and security are interesting topics. Back in
IE7, we moved to the notification to the address bar and called it
the trust badge. We worked with vendors so that when the badge
appeared, the user could be confident that the page could be
trusted.
... if you are in IE or FIrefox, and you click on the trust badge,
the sighted user gets more information. The screenreader user gets a
short phrase saying that the page is sucure.
... people do not understand what it is for, because it isn't used
often. Making a user experience understandable, the feature has to
change often enough so that the user sees that it has a function.
<kford> Let's walk through our 5 guidelines.
5.1
Michael: the ARIA reference isn't really appropriate there, it's a
technique, not a guideline.
... it also is about text messages, while ARIA relates to live
regions, changing text.
Kim: It's about control.
kelly: Control Interruptions. The user agent provides a mechanism
for the user to determine when notifications can interrupt their
workflow iwth notifications
Michael: WCAG uses " a mechanism is available" because sometimes the
author does it sometimes the user agent does it
Kelly: A mechanism is available to allow the user to control what
notifications will interrupt the user's workflow
... Intent: Users with disabilities are using software in ways that
involve a lot of input to the computer. Anything that interrupts
that context and cause trouble for them to get back to where they
were. The goal is to let the user decide when to be interrupted and
to be taken off-task.
Example: A speech input user has started to dictate a series of
commands for launching a web browser. The browser wants to let the
user know that a software update is available. The browser has been
configured to hold all those messages until the user asks the
browser if the browser has any messages for them
... notifications that grab focus are not as big a problem for
screen reader users -- we love dialog boxes. but devleopers are
moving away from them, because they pull people out of context.
... another example: A switch user is clicking a single switch when
focus goes to the tab key. The web browser blocks a popup so that
the user can continue tabbing without losing focus
another example with an ARIA case: A user is browsing a web page to
a web based chat client. The chat client is built using WAI-ARIA.
The chat application allows the user to configure which chat
messages are read automatically and interrupt other speech with the
assistive technology.
scribe: correct A user is browsing a web page with a screenreader.
kim: when the user changes focus to an application is a really bad
time to give notifications that interrupt for a speech user, because
it yanks the focus away because the user is queuing up another
operation of 5.1.
... the example of cut and paste between applications.
5.2
kelly: the problem I see with this guideline, I see that this is the
only mistake (form submission) we have SC about.
... we have a bug with HTML that we need to undo DragnDrop.
Michael: how much is UAAG trying to be unique - since much of this
is covered by WCAG.
... example of a form error
jeanne: this sounds like it is not a user agent issue.
Kelly: disagree. Supporting the ARIA invalid or the HTML "you
screwed up" attribute. The implicit assumption is that the user
agent supports that.
Michael: the need for marking the field in error, and the need for
navigating to the element in error is different.
kelly: Support error notification from relevant technologies, and do
an example of ARIA invalid.
... and WCAG
... did you really mean to fast forward and skip 30 minutes?
Michael: the html video element that fast forwards, so we need an
api that looks for that error. Do we want to put that in UAAG, or
leave it for HTML to instruct the browsers?
Kelly: do we do a overall message that the User Agents must meet
other guidelines like ARIA, or do we want to draw out individual
ARIA or WCAG guidelines where they are appropriate message.
Michael: The example of form submission not with the enter key isn't
a violation of any guideline, it is a problem of the browser
behavior in current practice.
kelly: the example of undo of drag and drop is a good example. It is
very hard for the user agent to undo a DnD because all the user
agent knows is that a script executed. It is easier for the authur
to write the undo script.
... Most of the mail applications with cut and paste or DnD do it
totally at a script level. This stuff is hard.
... what are the oh, shoot! moments as a speech user
Kim: losing focus, you want to be able to undo. If people know they
can undo, they are more likely to try things.
Kelly: the back command is the undo here. Clicking on the wrong link
is most common with older people.
kim: If you click on the wrong link when you ahve text somewhere,
and lose the text, that is aproblem. But if the page is secure, you
probably don't want to do that.
Andrew: couldn't you give an alert: are you sure you want to do
that?"
Kim: that cuts both ways, because it adds extra steps.
... if you have a control of dialog boxes and set that level that
you don't want to be interrupted, that would be a good thing.
issue: Are there other Undo or errors that UAAG needs to consider?
Do we need new SC?
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-59 - Are there other Undo or errors that
UAAG needs to consider? Do we need new SC? ; please complete
additional details at
[20]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/59/edit .
[20] http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/59/edit
5.3
jeanne: reads current 5.3
Kim: keyboard shortcut section and discovering key commands should
be a reference here.
[no discussion]
the examples are easy to create.
Michael - anywhere WCAG says " a mechanism is available" that would
be a cue that UAAG needs to have a guideline.
<kford> ACTION: KFord to review wcag 2.0 for instances of a
mechanism is available for places that UAAG needs to address.
[recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - KFord
<scribe> ACTION: KF to review wcag 2.0 for instances of a mechanism
is available for places that UAAG needs to address. [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-242 - Review wcag 2.0 for instances of a
mechanism is available for places that UAAG needs to address. [on
Kelly Ford - due 2009-11-13].
<andrewA> kelly: a mechanmism for setting global config as to
whether UAs can set default focus is provided
<andrewA> ... users need to know that the nav on a page will satrt
in a predictable location
<andrewA> ... recognising tha for a11y, stetting default to other
etna the fist link, the user shuld be in control of tis behaviour
<andrewA> ... eg a user navigates to a page where the focus is set
to the search box - affects scrolling, should be selectable globally
<andrewA> ... has to take additional actions to scrtoll to
thecontent they really wanted to view
<andrewA> ... eg transit time for the ferry page, and focus is into
searrch-box, you need to tab at least once to get to scroll to
content you wanted
<andrewA> kim: problem when focus changes during an action
<andrewA> kelly: sounds like WCAG 2.0 3.2.5 Change on Request -
redirection or change of context
<andrewA> michael: eg enterng postcodes and sometimes it moves on,
sometimes not
<andrewA> ... with multi-part postcodes
<andrewA> kim: tricky as sometimes you wnat this, but not always
<andrewA> kelly: uninitiated focus change - ...
<andrewA> Jim: we alsready have a GL about that - 3.10.8
<andrewA> Jeanne: we should have it again here as theis about
predictability, and reference the previous SC
<andrewA> kelly: the use cases we have here are about web content
<kford> Group picking up review of action items.
<kford> Action 174 updated to a December date.
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 174
<kford> Action 182 completed.
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 182
<kford> action 182 closed.
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 182
<kford> closing action 182.
<kford> Giving action 183 to Mark for a December date.
<kford> Closing action 184.
<kford> Updatng action 188, leaving open need a good glossary.
<kford> Closing action 189 event handling langugage solid.
<kford> Closing 191, preferences seem pretty good.
<kford> Updating action 194 to a December date.
<kford> 4.5.4 Portable Preference Settings:The user can transfer
preference settings across locations onto a compatible system.
(Level AAA)
<kford> Closing 195 as done.
<kford> Updating action 198 to a November deadline, Jim to send
Jeanne survey text since we have it ready.
<kford> Action 1999 update ot jan 2010.
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 1999
<kford> update action 199 to jan 2010.
<kford> Keeping open, handling with other preference setting item.
<kford> That's 201.
<kford> Closing 202.
<kford> Closing 203.
<kford> Closing 207.
<kford> Close action 210
<kford> Update action 211 to a December date.
<kford> Closing 212.
<kford> UAAG links.
<kford>
[23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0091.h
tml
[23]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0091.html
<kford> Closing 214, 216, 221 UAAG subreviewed HTML 5. Good job
everyone.
<kford> Closing 220.
<kford> Leave 222 open.
<kford> Updating several multimedia items to a new december data.
Includes 226, 227,229, 231.
<kford> Close 230.
<kford> Assigning 234 to Jeanne.
<kford> Action 235 closed, bug 8187 filed against html 5 spec.
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 235
<kford> closing action 235.
<SCain> Thank you for letting me observe and participate.
<kford> Jeanne: Right now our document format are in HTML and we are
limited in the views we can create of them.
<kford> I'd love to try and move them into XML.
<scribe> ACTION: jeanne to follow up on the spec tool demonstrated
at TPAC lightning talks by November 12 [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-243 - Follow up on the spec tool
demonstrated at TPAC lightning talks by November 12 [on Jeanne
Spellman - due 2009-11-13].
<kford> Video draft minutes.
<kford> [25]http://ur1.ca/fa6o
[25] http://ur1.ca/fa6o
<kford> +/me wow, anyone know much about this. Seems like some
accessibility implications.
<kford>
[26]http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xforms-refresh-
events
[26]
http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xforms-refresh-events
<kford> MH giving examples of alert notifications in campus
environments.
<kford> Recap of section 5 discussion.
<jallan> KF: what are things that make things understandable?
<jallan> MH: knowledge of operation of the application. some level
of intuitiveness.
UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: highly symbolic for people with cognitive
processing issues, procedural for people with memory issues.
... highly individual for people depending on their level of
sophisticaion, technology being used. Symbology is a big issue
across different cultures. It is very difficult thing to do.
... it is all about personalizing the UI.
<jallan> this is usability. a11y and usability are intertwined. what
can to UA do to communicate, facilitate or discover the
intuituveness of the functionality?
<andrew> -> Relationship Between Web Accessibility and Usability
[27]http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-accessibility-n-usability
an upcoming output from WAI-AGE and EOWG. Thoughts welcome
[27] http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-accessibility-n-usability
kelly: If I look at what I have today,we have document the
accessibility, document the software, don't let me make a mistake.
What if a web browser implemented a ribbon, what would they have to
do to meet understanding.
mark: start with the simplest reduced set, then be able to add
functionality.
Kim: keyboard shortcuts are not discoverable in the Office Word
ribbon.
Kelly: maybe you need a tutorial of what the features are and wehre
to find things
kim: the user agent needs to make it easy.
Jim: how can we measure "easy"? How can we use it.
Andrew: Make it easily discoverable, maybe a wizard, maybe a menu
option.
<jallan> KF: if requirement to say explain your UI to me. can
software do it.
<jallan> ... the software has all these features, heres houw you use
them. pretty high standard
<jallan> Who is me? what does developer tell person x about their
individual needs for using a product?
<jallan> KP: ...
<jallan> ... ability to configure the interface
<jallan> AA: sitemap 2.4.5 in wcag - multiple ways of finding
information in a group of pages.
<jallan> KF: what if button push to give a list of all the functions
available in the UA.
<jallan> KP: reference all configuration, options, etc in other
guidelines in GL 5
<jallan> JS: audience of UAAG is developers that should know about
user centered design
<jallan> ... need 2 slices
<jallan> .... use xml to sort by keyword for video, keyboard, etc.
<jallan> ... need multiple tags on each SC
<jallan> ... to ensure nuance and synergy between SC that may not be
eveident to person who does not get a11y
<jallan> ... tag by who benefits blind, deaf, cognitive, noisy, etc
<jallan> JS: csun 09 presentation on cognitive interface
<jallan> feature bloat...start with a simple interface let the user
add new features as needed.
<jallan> how does user know how to add a new feature, is there a
button, etc
[discussion of interfaces and simplicity and how to transition to
more sophisticated user.
<jallan> intelligence in the interface that watches usage and
suggests features. how is user supposed to discover a feature that
is not shown
Mark: need adaptive interfaces that see that you use a feature
often, and prompts you to add a button.
<jallan> issue: need a requirement for out of the box installation
present options for interface
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-60 - Need a requirement for out of the box
installation present options for interface ; please complete
additional details at
[28]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/60/edit .
[28] http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/60/edit
jeanne: When a software program is installed, the default
configuration is a simplified user interface.
Mark: with an easy button for the advanced user to bypass it.
<kford> Let's do issues next time or something.
<kford> [29]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/open
[29] http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/open
<andrew>
[30]http://www.ehow.com/how_2303743_compete-bowling-blind-partially-
sighted.html
[30]
http://www.ehow.com/how_2303743_compete-bowling-blind-partially-sighted.html
blind bowling article that explains the rail.
[31]http://www.ehow.com/how_2303743_compete-bowling-blind-partially-
sighted.html
[31]
http://www.ehow.com/how_2303743_compete-bowling-blind-partially-sighted.html
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to follow up on the spec tool demonstrated at
TPAC lightning talks by November 12 [recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: KF to review wcag 2.0 for instances of a mechanism is
available for places that UAAG needs to address. [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: KFord to review wcag 2.0 for instances of a mechanism
is available for places that UAAG needs to address. [recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Received on Saturday, 7 November 2009 01:04:18 UTC