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Minutes 26 Feb

From: Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:51:59 -0600
To: <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Message-ID: <009601c9984b$affd9310$0ff8b930$@edu>
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html

W3C
- DRAFT -
User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
26 Feb 2009

See also: IRC log
Attendees

Present
Regrets
    Judy, Jan, Alan, DavidP, JanR
Chair
    Jim Allan
Scribe
    mhakkinen

Contents

    * Topics
         1. discussion of accessibility conflicts in user agents, Cynthia
Shelly, Microsoft Senior Accessibility Strategist
         2. Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/
    * Summary of Action Items

 

 

<AllanJ> zakim. this will be wai_u

<AllanJ> Title: UAWG telecon

<KFord> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 26 February 2009

<KFord> Chair: Jim Allan

i am on another call for about 10 minutes. i can pick up scribing once i
join, if needed.

<KFord> zakim take up agenda 1
discussion of accessibility conflicts in user agents, Cynthia Shelly,
Microsoft Senior Accessibility Strategist

<KFord> CS talking about CSS outline issue. One option is none, which turns
off outlines.

<KFord> IE8 supports this as does FF.

<KFord> It appears to be an issue in the CSS spec.

<KFord> This has the potential to cause accessibility conflicts.

<KFord> CS: What does your group think.

<KFord> CS: Another reason this concerns me is that this interferes with an
OS accessibility features, namely focus rects.

<KFord> JA: I went to wcag 2 and they have a success criteria around this at
level AA. They don't necessarily say don't turn this off.

<KFord> JA: I think there are a lot of options, like setting default font
and such. Maybe even creating your own CSS.

<AllanJ> KF: user can write css, but beyond abilities of most users

<AllanJ> ...in today's user agents. Should the UA do more. if the group can
identify that something will degrade a users experience

<AllanJ> ...then the UA can warn, like a sign by construction on a sidewalk

<AllanJ> KF: other user configurable options, like alternative content stack

<AllanJ> ...this is similar. user should indicate a preference to always
display focus

<jeanne>
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/#gl-interaction-highlight

<AllanJ> ...UA must do what is has to do to make user happy

<AllanJ> ...User in control

<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to recommend an SC or technique to add a
preference to always display focus. and to

<Zakim> AllanJ, you wanted to discuss insulating users from authors

<jeanne>
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/#gl-interaction-highlight

<AllanJ> ...we don't know them all. hard to prevent all.

<jeanne> 3.5.1 Highlighted items covers this.

<jeanne> CS: recommends defining content focus carefully. PF and HTML5 are
working on this as part of ARIA.

<AllanJ> scripting focus vs UA focus

<AllanJ> large black holes in javascript and items taken out of the tab
order

jeanne i can start scribing.

<jeanne> CS:default settings should be accessible.

<KFord> +1 on the default settings.

CS: outline supports everything border supports except none

<KFord> Thanks Cynthia. Appreciate the visit.

ja: have we met all of CS's issues?

CS: yes

ja: focus in scripts. 3.5.1 add issue of focus in scripts.

<AllanJ> ACTION: SH to write proposal for 'default settings of UA should be
accessible' need examples? [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH

<trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username
(eg. sharper, shayes)

<AllanJ> ACTION: SHarper to write proposal for 'default settings of UA
should be accessible' need examples? [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-149 - to write proposal for 'default settings of
UA should be accessible' need examples? [on Simon Harper - due 2009-03-05].

ja: do we need to add something relative to focus and scripts?

mh: yes, a real problem

kford: yes

ja: mark to do an action on this

<scribe> ACTION: mhakkinen to write a proposal for scripting and focus, for
3.5.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - mhakkinen

<scribe> ACTION: mh to write a proposal for scripting and focus, for 3.5.1
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-150 - Write a proposal for scripting and focus,
for 3.5.1 [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2009-03-05].

sh: we have a term called override. does this have some relation to default
settings?

ja: default settings should be as accessible as possible, accessible out of
the box
Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/

<cyns> I was on Skype, sorry about that.

ja: first item is to review status section of the document. try to wrap up
in time for CSUN

js: make sure that we've covered big ones in status. if something was felt
to be not on the right track, call it out and ask for feedback. put the
status out and make sure these are the ones we have to address.

hs: better understanding now, re my original comments

kf: group seeks feedback from ua manufacturers as to whether these
guidelines can be used to develop ua's. Is all needed information there?

hs: good question. is more supporting documentation needed to support the
guidelines?

kf: another question to ask. Today using many different web browsers. do
these guidelines capture the need of the wide range of platforms in which
ua's exist today

hs: we should include.

<AllanJ> MH: any devices (wii, kindle, etc) all have UAs in them. this point
is not made clearly enough

kf: two more questions, how do we go forward? do i need to write up?

js: will add them to the status, based on what is in minutes. can also email
them to list.

ja: publishing the week of the 12th.

<AllanJ> changes also harmonized with ATAG 20 Guideline 1 also expanded the
definition to include web applications as user agents.

js: arrive at csun with a handout containing a link to the document to be
reviewed.

ja: any other comments, send to jeanne.
... glossary: document object model

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/results

<AllanJ> proposed: The internal representation of data in the source content
by a non-Web-based authoring tool or user agent. The document object may
form part of a platform accessibility architecture that enables
communication with assistive technologies.

ja: take out sentence on authoring tool based on comments.

<AllanJ> proposed: The internal representation of data in the source content
by a non-Web-based user agent. The document object may form part of a
platform accessibility architecture that enables communication with
assistive technologies.

ja: what about david's proposal?
... both david and simon have valid points. no techniques for this. should
put in "understanding uaag" doc

js: appropriate

<AllanJ> does it hurt anything if we leave the reference to AT in the
definition

kford: making definition too complicated. don't need to tie it into AT. it
is what it is.

ja: we've explained enough in the programmatic access.

kf: ua developers will know what DOM is

<AllanJ> proposed: The internal representation of data in the source content
by a non-Web-based user agent.

kf: made clear in the meat of the document

<AllanJ> =1

<AllanJ> +1

mh: is there an alernative to non-web based ua?

ja: others have thoughts?

sh: are we saying that a web-based ua is not present on the user's platform

ja: carry over from atag, they have web-based and non-web-based authoring
tools.
... will take an action to rewrite this.

<AllanJ> ACTION: JA to write proposal about removing non-web-based, default
to be UA , if web-based it will be specifically named [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-151 - Write proposal about removing non-web-based,
default to be UA , if web-based it will be specifically named [on Jim Allan
- due 2009-03-05].

<AllanJ> SH: do you have to have a DOM

<AllanJ> MH: you will eventually create one

<AllanJ> KF: but might call it something else

<AllanJ> > proposed: The internal representation of data in the source
content by a user agent.

ja: any objections?

none

<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update glossary with the new definition of Document
Object. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-152 - Update glossary with the new definition of
Document Object. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-05].

next document character set: all agree, done.

<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update glossary with new definition of document
character set. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-153 - Update glossary with new definition of
document character set. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-05].

ja: next is document source, text source. 5 accept, 1 change, 2 more disc

kf: reading this, don't understand what the last sentence is for. Why text
source?

js: we use both in the document.

ja: Text the user agent renders upon user request to view the source of
specific viewport content (i.e. selected content, frame, page).
... any objections to using new short def?

<AllanJ> resolved: Text the user agent renders upon user request to view the
source of specific viewport content (i.e. selected content, frame, page).

<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update glossary with new definition of Document
Source. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-154 - Update glossary with new definition of
Document Source. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-05].

sh: w3c DOM group definition of DOM.

<sharper> http://www.w3.org/DOM/#what

ja: any objection to using DOM groups definition?

resolved: use DOM groups defintion of document object model. "The Document
Object Model is a platform- and language-neutral interface that will allow
programs and scripts to dynamically access and update the content, structure
and style of documents. The document can be further processed and the
results of that processing can be incorporated back into the presented page.
This is an overview of DOM-related materials here at W3C and around the
web."

ja: next is documentation. 7 accepts. one question.

<AllanJ> add 'all forms must be accessible or available in accessible
alternative formats'?

ja: alternative formats is redundant. already taken care of. add in mark's
text for installation, ahead of CD ROM.

<AllanJ> resolved: Any information that supports the use of a user agent.
This information may be found, for example, in manuals, installation
instructions, the help system, and tutorials. Documentation may be
distributed (e.g., as files installed as part of the installation, some
parts may be delivered on CD-ROM, others on the Web). See guideline 5.3 for
information about documentation requirements.

ja: next is element or element type.

<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update glossary with definition of Documentation.
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-155 - Update glossary with definition of
Documentation. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-05].

xhtnl def of element: An element is a document structuring unit declared in
the DTD. The element's content model is defined in the DTD, and additional
semantics may be defined in the prose description of the element.

continue discussion of element next week

jeanne will extend the current survey for next week, and will remove
questions that we have already resolved.

ja: will take up Henny's issue next week.
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: JA to write proposal about removing non-web-based, default to
be UA , if web-based it will be specifically named [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to update glossary with definition of Documentation.
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to update glossary with new definition of document
character set. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to update glossary with new definition of Document Source.
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to update glossary with the new definition of Document
Object. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: mh to write a proposal for scripting and focus, for 3.5.1
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: mhakkinen to write a proposal for scripting and focus, for
3.5.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: SH to write proposal for 'default settings of UA should be
accessible' need examples? [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: SHarper to write proposal for 'default settings of UA should
be accessible' need examples? [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action02]
 
[End of minutes]


Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator & Webmaster
Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
voice 512.206.9315    fax: 512.206.9264  http://www.tsbvi.edu/
"We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964
Received on Thursday, 26 February 2009 19:53:54 UTC

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