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User Agent Working Group Telecon - 05 Feb 2009

From: Simon Harper <simon.harper@manchester.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 19:45:59 +0000
Message-Id: <6B0E5C2B-0142-40B2-AA60-A137248C9538@manchester.ac.uk>
To: UAWG list <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>

HTML Minutes: http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html
IRC Log: http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-irc
Open Issues: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: JR to Look at "application" in the defn of platform  
accessibility architecture [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05- 
ua-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: JR to Write-up a clarification of WHICH web apps are  
user agents and which are not. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/ 
2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to put the revised definition of platform  
accessibility architecture into next week's survey [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to research whether the draft charter dates can be  
updated at this time. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua- 
minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to update glossary with new definition [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: kelly to think about guideline around ensuring embedded  
user agents work correctly (includes MTH). [recorded in http:// 
www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: kf, mh to think about guideline to capture user agents  
embeded in desktop applications [recorded in http://www.w3.org/ 
2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: kford to think about guideline around ensuring embedded  
user agents work correctly (includes MTH). [recorded in http:// 
www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: kford,mht to think about guideline around ensuring  
embedded user agents work correctly. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/ 
2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: to put the revised definition of platform accessibility  
architecture into next week's survey [recorded in http://www.w3.org/ 
2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action09]

- DRAFT -

User Agent Working Group Telecon - 05 Feb 2009

05 Feb 2009

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Allan_James, Harper_Simon, Hakkinen_Mark, Spellman_Jeanne,  
Ford_Kelly, Swan_Henny, Richards_Jan
Regrets
Alan, Brewer_Judy
Chair
Jim_Allan
Scribe
Harper_Simon
Contents

Topics
Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
New Member (introductions all around)
WD Publication status
ATIA report on UAAG20 poster session
Glossary Review First 20 Items -
Draft Charter review http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/ 
draft_uawg_charter_20mar08.html
ATIA report on UAAG20 poster session
Glossary Review First 20 Items -
Summary of Action Items




<AllanJ> title: UAWG telecon
<AllanJ> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/ 
att-0009/UAAG_glossary_review.doc
<scribe> scribe: Harper_Simon
<scribe> ScribeNick: sharper
JA: Introduces new member HS (Opera Web Evangelist)
HS: Introductions and background
All: Round table Introductions
Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?

New Member (introductions all around)

WD Publication status

JS: Draft - currently on hold for chartering and WG meetings per year  
for UAWG. Once complete we can then publish this draft.
... Hoping for something soon.
ATIA report on UAAG20 poster session

JA: JS did a poster session at ATIA and has comments.
JS: @ posters - one on WAI and Guidelines and screen-shot of Easy  
YouTube Browser
... Generated most discussion as concerned that we where including  
Web Applications as User Agents.
... feeling was covered by WCAG and was confusion that we required  
developers to conform to 2 sets of guidelines
... Concern re - EU that thsi would quickly become a standard
... W-Applications are just widgets and have to conform to WCAG and  
ARIA and now UAWG
ack
KF: What do people think about this - what are our reactions?
JR: Not going to be to much of a big deal in reality - we already  
point to WCAG for a big chunk of this - things after this are really  
just to do with broswer specific stuff - in a browser setting.
MH: Sorted in Public comment
KF: Our guidelines are the superset of the basics that would be  
needed, for future proofing.
... need some good arguments on this
JA: with PF dodged a bullet using ARIA - may not be so lucky next  
time - developers doing so so much with JavaScript that there may be  
problems in the future.
<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/People/jeanne/ATIA2009/UAAG-final-letter.pdf
KF: UAAG 1 based on desktop - strides on eliminating the bias -  
desktop is still primary - but other devices must be included - need  
to make sure that our guidelines are not so biased.
JS: Like to take the time to re read for modularity - such that if a  
section applies to a W-Application or does the entire document  
applies - must be careful on this.
JA: in Conformance claim?
JS: Guidelines to make sure that (in application notes) we have the  
right boundaries around the user agent types.
MH: Follow up on KF - most innovation on touch screen devices etc.  
need to look at the document now to see this.
<AllanJ> boundary between (specific guidelines) for web-applications  
as browser and browser-application
<KFord> SHarper: Talking about other browsing platforms like that  
used by phones from Google.
<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/People/jeanne/ATIA2009/WAI-Poster.png
<KFord> Sharper: Also talking about json, javascript object notation.
<KFord> JR: +1 to kford's comments. Reason why we need to declare any  
kind of boundary is that in the end we are talking about agents where  
the contet is web content.
<AllanJ> JR: +1 to KF comment about wide variety of platforms, tools,  
etc.
<JR> ackJR
KF: Android technology could be the greater concern, JSON is more  
about the JS technology as it is about displaying information.
<AllanJ> SH: JSON covered by ARIA?
KF: JSON more about the exchange as opposed to the display so would  
not effect this - as WCAG / UAAG / ARIA would still cover this.
<AllanJ> KF: more about background (lower-level) data transfer
MH: Android browser based on WebKit and more like chrome
... Times Article - TV Raman - touch screen technology working on  
user agents - ideas on this?
<KFord> JSON definition/description http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Json
<JR> So JSON is just a format
RESOLUTION: Still resolved to address Web Applications in the UAAG  
Guidelines as they are part of the browser.
RESOLUTION: JA - Two sets of guidelines, these are for things that  
are for applications and another set are the Web Applications side  
(this is a possibility - re JS characterisations) in maybe a 2-tiered  
way.
<KFord> TV Raman article from MY Times - http://www.nytimes.com/ 
2009/01/04/business/04blind.html
<KFord> +1
<JR> ACTION: JR to Write-up a clarification of WHICH web apps are  
user agents and which are not. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/ 
2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-119 - Write-up a clarification of WHICH web  
apps are user agents and which are not. [on Jan Richards - due  
2009-02-12].
JR: Could you say when content is wrapped in content then it is just  
content - but when you transform something you're a user agent.
ISSUE: Future Formats - do we need to investigate these?
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-31 - Future Formats - do we need to  
investigate these? ; please complete additional details at http:// 
www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/31/edit .
MH: Pulling local database information (not Web) and wrapping in html  
but not web content
JR: is dataformat a web content format? HTML is ARIA is / word is not  
say
MH: pulling an XML doc into an XSLT system
KF: common for desktop applications - will use any web tech that is  
on the platform as it is easy to wrap and use. Problem, maybe getting  
AT to switch between these applications - is this covered - should it  
be? Also, problem getting out of the environment.
... Do we need a guideline saying - you've got to play nice with your  
neighbours.
JA: In new 508, did away with application guidelines and web  
guidelines - now they are just one.
... Seems like the compound document issues - (platform on a platform  
on a platform)
<JR> acl AllanJ
<KFord> ACTION: kf, mh to think about guideline to capture user  
agents embeded in desktop applications [recorded in http://www.w3.org/ 
2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - kf,
JR: Plugins are user agents embeded in a desktop application
<KFord> ACTION: kford,mht to think about guideline around ensuring  
embedded user agents work correctly. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/ 
2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - kford,mht
<mth> mth
<AllanJ> ACTION: kford to think about guideline around ensuring  
embedded user agents work correctly (includes MTH). [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
<AllanJ> ACTION: kelly to think about guideline around ensuring  
embedded user agents work correctly (includes MTH). [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-120 - Think about guideline around ensuring  
embedded user agents work correctly (includes MTH). [on Kelly Ford -  
due 2009-02-12].
Glossary Review First 20 Items -

Draft Charter review http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/ 
draft_uawg_charter_20mar08.html

<AllanJ> JA: Last call June 09 atainable?
<AllanJ> JS: need video, understanding doc, and couple of other things.
KFord: Need more comments on the draft
<AllanJ> KF: June seems ambitious
KF: August / Sept seems more realistic
JA: we can have more than one last call
JR: don't want to plan many LC - means you haven't done your job
... Now have a Stabilisation Draft - then after this LC
... need time for this
... 9 months from now to LC through SD
<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to talk about the importance of presenting  
and talking about the publications.
JS: Need to present and publicise the UAWG - maybe need to talk about  
this at conferences etc. Look at conference that you are attending  
for opportunities to promote this.
HS: Can do this via twitter, blogging, and youtube.
<AllanJ> SHarper: what about WWW conference, I'll be going
<AllanJ> HS: I will be there also
<jeanne> ACTION: JS to research whether the draft charter dates can  
be updated at this time. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua- 
minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-121 - Research whether the draft charter  
dates can be updated at this time. [on Jeanne Spellman - due  
2009-02-12].
ATIA report on UAAG20 poster session

Glossary Review First 20 Items -

<AllanJ> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/ 
att-0009/UAAG_glossary_review.doc
<AllanJ> To execute the behaviour(s) associated with an enabled  
element rendered content or component of the user agent user interface.
<JR> To execute the behaviour(s) associated with an enabled element  
in the rendered content or component of the user agent user interface.
RESOLUTION: Activate - To execute the behaviour(s) associated with an  
enabled element in the rendered content or component of the user  
agent user interface.
<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update glossary with new definition [recorded  
in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-122 - Update glossary with new definition  
[on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-02-12].
<AllanJ> A programmatic interface that is specifically engineered to  
provide communication between mainstream applications and assistive  
technologies (e.g., MSAA and IAccessible2 for Windows applications,  
AXAPI for MacOSX applications, Gnome Accessibility Toolkit API for  
Gnome applications, Java Access for Java applications, etc.). On some  
platforms it may be conventional to enhance communication...
<AllanJ> ...further by implementing a DOM.
MH: why 'mainstream'
JR: Just to differentiate between AT etc
... Can dig the ATAG definition for Mainstream
<JR> From ATAG 2.0: mainstream applications
<JR> Software applications for which augmenting accessibility is  
secondary to some other purpose (as opposed to assistive technology  
where it is the primary purpose). Mainstream technologies may include  
direct accessibility features.
<AllanJ> KF: should list UIautomation in examples
KF: what are we trying to get with the last sentence?
JR: attempt to reconcile that DOMs are important in some cases -  
compromise language.
JA: can more the last sentence to the DOM / or objections to stay  
where it is (KF)?
<AllanJ> KF: -1 mainstream
<JR> WCAG 2.0: hardware and/or software that acts as a user agent, or  
along with a mainstream user agent, to provide functionality to meet  
the requirements of users with disabilities that go beyond those  
offered by mainstream user agents
<AllanJ> JS: -1 mainstream, add another cognitive layer
<mth> -1 mainstream
<AllanJ> A programmatic interface that is specifically engineered to  
provide communication between applications and assistive technologies  
(e.g., MSAA, UI Automation, and IAccessible2 for Windows  
applications, AXAPI for MacOSX applications, Gnome Accessibility  
Toolkit API for Gnome applications, Java Access for Java  
applications, etc.). On some platforms it may be conventional to  
enhance communication furt
<AllanJ> her by implementing a DOM.
JR: to take back ro ATAG - what should we use on a general basis -  
application / software ?
<KFord> Confirming UI Automation is as I indicated UI Automation  
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/accessibility/bb892133.aspx
JA: application - we've been using this throughout
... Leave at application
JR: Applications OK for now
RESOLUTION: JR will look at this over the next week - postponed to  
next meeting
Platform Accessibility Architecture - A programmatic interface that  
is specifically engineered to provide communication between  
applications and assistive technologies (e.g., MSAA, UI Automation,  
and IAccessible2 for Windows applications, AXAPI for MacOSX  
applications, Gnome Accessibility Toolkit API for Gnome applications,  
Java Access for Java applications, etc.). On some platforms it may be  
conventional to enhance communication further by implementing a DOM.
<JR> ACTION: JR to Look at "application" in the defn of platform  
accessibility architecture [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05- 
ua-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-123 - Look at \"application\" in the defn  
of platform accessibility architecture [on Jan Richards - due  
2009-02-12].
<jeanne> ACTION: to put the revised definition of platform  
accessibility architecture into next week's survey [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action09]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
<jeanne> ACTION: JS to put the revised definition of platform  
accessibility architecture into next week's survey [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action10]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-124 - Put the revised definition of  
platform accessibility architecture into next week's survey [on  
Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-02-12].
Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: JR to Look at "application" in the defn of platform  
accessibility architecture [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05- 
ua-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: JR to Write-up a clarification of WHICH web apps are  
user agents and which are not. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/ 
2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to put the revised definition of platform  
accessibility architecture into next week's survey [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to research whether the draft charter dates can be  
updated at this time. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua- 
minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to update glossary with new definition [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: kelly to think about guideline around ensuring embedded  
user agents work correctly (includes MTH). [recorded in http:// 
www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: kf, mh to think about guideline to capture user agents  
embeded in desktop applications [recorded in http://www.w3.org/ 
2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: kford to think about guideline around ensuring embedded  
user agents work correctly (includes MTH). [recorded in http:// 
www.w3.org/2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: kford,mht to think about guideline around ensuring  
embedded user agents work correctly. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/ 
2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: to put the revised definition of platform accessibility  
architecture into next week's survey [recorded in http://www.w3.org/ 
2009/02/05-ua-minutes.html#action09]

[End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 5 February 2009 19:46:37 UTC

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