- From: Jan Richards <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>
- Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 15:58:54 -0400
- To: w3c-wai-ua@w3.org
MINUTES:
http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-minutes.html
ACTION ITEMS:
Jan to monitor ATAG development as the relate to software accessibility
JR monitor whether ISO9241-171:2008 will be released freely [3]
Jallan to combine 1&2 and 2&4
FULL TEXT:
AU thinking on application guidelines
<Jan>
http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2008/WD-ATAG20-20080801/WD-ATAG20-20080801.html
JR: Above is editors draft from F2F in Redmond
... AU given up on benchmark claim.
... important to UAWG is application accessibility guidelines.
... ATAG felt application accessibilty was over kill
... already saying follow platform conventions which is a bit loose
... want to say the same thing about accessibility of software
... could not put out software accessibilty guidelines that are parallel
or equivalent to ISO
... now say - follow accessibility guidelines for your platform
Judy: long history with accessibility of software
... want to check on
... clear requirement to meet ATAG must meet ISO spec
... ATAG has specifics to authoring tool, not covered in ISO
JR: yes, ATAG will have guidelines for specific authoring tool
application interface accessibility
Judy: how does this relate to UAAG
JR: need a review of UAAG guidelines to remove 'generic' ATAG items that
were added in recent drafts.
Judy: any comments, concerns.
Shaper and Alan: need to review both documents
JR: Part A of ATAG, sccessibilty of authoring tool to the user with
disabilities
... reviews structure
<Jan> JA: Only concern is haven't looked at ISO
JR: ATAG simplification, UI vs content issues have lessened
... ATAG kept somethings to do with keyboard
<Jan>
http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2008/WD-ATAG20-20080801/WD-ATAG20-20080801.html#principle-operable
JR: specific keyboard accessibility guidelines will stay in ATAG
Judy: concerns - ATAG changes sounds straight forward, but is complex
... perhaps need an action in UAAG to review items.
... ISO cost concerns
JR: no normative reference to ISO, up to conformant to choose software
accessibility guidelines
... explaining rationale
Judy: many standards are in flux. current 508 does not have coverage
that UAAG10 has. Users and developers have complained about insufficient
coverage of browser-specific UI coverage in the current 508
... 508 Update still 2 years out. not nearly finished.
... ISO much more robust.
... perhaps table for a few weeks. Action to watch what happens with
ATAG and ISO.
... Need a specific and relevant and free standard to reference
... No other spec has gotten keyboard right.
JR: agree
Judy: thanks Jan for bringing up
JR: ATAG will point to WCAG for web-based interface, will always need
desktop interface and mobile interface
<scribe> ACTION: http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail?csnumber=30858
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<Jan>
http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_ics/catalogue_detail_ics.htm?csnumber=39080
ISO/TS 16071:2003
<judy> Judy: (had also said, above) Another major concern is that we
apparently do not yet have any guarantee that the ISO spec (ISO 16701
ergonomics of human system interaction: guidance on software
accessibility) will indeed become freely available; and until it does,
any discussion to consider dropping certain parts of our work here would
be premature
<Jan> Ergonomics of human-system interaction -- Part 171: Guidance on
software accessibility
<scribe> ACTION: Jan to monitor ATAG development as the relate to
software accessibility [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<judy> Judy: Also I had raised a concern that pointing for conformance
purposes to non-specific guidance elsewhere may be insufficient; it
should be specific.
<Jan> ACTION: JR monitor whether ISO9241-171:2008 will be released
freely [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<Jan> Scribe: Jan
Proposal for placement of keyboard items
JA: My proposal at
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0050.html
... Simon's comments:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0059.html
... Proposing new guideline 3.11.7
<AllanJ> JR: There is a problem, difficult concept for people to understand
JB: To begin with I don't think things should be written parenthetically
... Not right - we were talking about mode
... We would not be indicating how to do it
AC: Is this referring to Ctrl+S and S underlined
JA: Yes
<AllanJ> rewrite without parentheticals: Any currently visible UI
operable controls that have direct UI keyboard commands have their
keyboard commands visually displayed in context
AC: Very different things...first is way to quickly do task without menu
and other second provides way for quickly navigating menu
JB: Think a lot of times those overlap
... Also looking at 2...are these so different
AC: See reason for seperating them...especially with accelerator keys
... When two keys have same accelerator, pressing key bounces between
them...in dialog only one works
... Two totally different functions
<AllanJ> JR: agree,
<AllanJ> ... the reason is begins with "Any currently visible UI
operable controls" is because you can't provide direct UI commands
because they are not visible
SH: Is this like 3.6.1?
... Seems like we are trying to highlight
JR: Yes it's highlighting plus letting user know what keystrokes are
<AllanJ> in UAAG20 http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/
3.6.1 Highlighted items: The user has the option to highlight the
following classes of information: @@10.2 in UAAG10@@
(a) selection,
(b) content focus,
(c) recognized enabled elements, and
(d) recently visited links.@@Remove since so common?@@
SH: This highlights your options...
JB: Do we define highlight?
JA: Defined
<AllanJ> In this document, "to highlight" means to emphasize through the
user interface. For example, user agents highlight which content is
selected or focused. Graphical highlight mechanisms include dotted
boxes, underlining, and reverse video. Synthesized speech highlight
mechanisms include alterations of voice pitch and volume ("speech prosody").
JR: Warning about 3.6.1 is in content, the req. in question is chrome
and uses OS
SH: Think highlighting works...doesn't require it to be visual
AC: Confusion...some people call selection highlighting
JB: Prob we would be getting into confusions
JA: So I'm hearing not 3.11, not 3.6
JB: Have we determined for sure
... Can see what you're saying, but 3.6 feels right
oops that was SH
JA: Originally thought it didn't fit in 4...but maybe it does
... Perceivable vs operable
JB: "Guideline 4.1 Ensure full keyboard access" is obvious
SH: Pref 3.6
... Seems to me that we want to let people know they can make selection
JA: Think back to using the Mac
... Prob wasn't use it was perception
JB: Was a combination of several things...
... Came down to I couldn't use keyboard
... Phrasing of perceivable...
Make sure the user interface perceivable
<AllanJ> Judy: this bridges both perceivable and operable.
<AllanJ> JR: tried to make it thematic - keyboard operation (you must
perceive and operate)
JR: Perceivalbe operabl hard to cut apart - Keyboard is thematic
JB: Want things together because how it affects developers getting lost
SH: I'm not UI developer directly but would suggest we need to bring
enough stuff to perceivable to have a keyboard section in perceivable
JB: If we look at other things under 3....
... Sorry but this keyboard requirement doesn't seem to fit...better in 4
... Straw poll...
SH: OK either way but pref perceivable
AC: Can easily go into either
JR: Can see SH's point but would pref it stay in 4 for now
JA: Really makes sense for it to be in 4
SH: OK with that if we can get the terminology polished up
... terminology->phraseoology
Resolve: Keep req. on showing shortcuts in 4.1
User configuration has an option to display keyboard shortcuts for all
visible controls
JR: How is this diff from the first...is this content and that was chrome?
AC: Sounds like content
... Maybe could apply to both chrome and content
... What's usually missing now iare theshortcuts in web apps
... Would would an option to display mean?
<AllanJ> JR: when I wrote this. It does not describe how things work
now. It does not depend on tooltips.
<AllanJ> ... there are no conventions for this at the momement
AC: Important point to get this in
... Would it be ok if tool/balloon tips came up as user tabbed around theui
... Other way is what JR suggests with overlay of controls in a
particular mode
JB: THink that would be incredibly distracting
... Sometimes other keystroke to make that go away
... Type of solution for some things...underlined letters in menu...
... Beauty of that is less dynamic etc
AC: So a separate list?
JB: This re: embedded content
AC: Would be very nice eg. on embedded media player
JB: So why can't reuse same mechanism as for chrome UI?
AC: Different mechanism
JB: Does appear as icons etc
... So presents problem..
AC: This is adding something brand new
JR: Excatly
JB: But we shouldn't ask something special of embedded apps
... So requirement should only be easily discover...
JA: I've been looking at this...
... In first one...UI controls need shortcuts and underlines
... 4. is for the content
... 2 is just ability to turn them off
JR: We should remove the one that is just an option
<AllanJ> Judy: combine UI and content and configuration
<AllanJ> JR: Everybody does UI, but content visibilty is new. should be
separate
<AllanJ> Judy: can live with it.
AC: Brings up example of Web app that takes ctrl commands
JA: That sounds like AJAX
JB: Hope we made progress today...let's pick up again next week
... THanks all
<AllanJ> ACTION: Jallan to combine 1&2 and 2&4 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-minutes.html#action04]
Jim Allan wrote:
> User Agent Teleconference for 7 August 2008
> Chair: Judy Brewer & Jim Allan
> Date: Thursday, 7 August 2008
> Time: 2:00-3:30 pm Boston Local Time, USA (19:00-20:00 UTC/GMT)
> Call-in: Zakim bridge at: +1-617-761-6200, code 82941# for UK use
> 44-117-370-6152
> IRC: sever: irc.w3.org, port: 6665, channel: #ua.
> Scribe schedule and scribing help: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/scribing.html
>
> Apologies for very late agenda.
>
> Agenda
> 1. Regrets, agenda requests, comments?
> - Regrets: Alan Cantor, Jeanne Spellman
>
> 2. @order in the Access Module (Gregory) - 10 minutes
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0043.html
>
> 3. Recent changes in AUWG thinking about application part of ATAG (Jan) - 10
> minutes
>
> 4. Focused Keyboard discussion
> - Proposal for placement of keyboard items
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0050.html
> -
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0059.html
> -
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0061.html
>
> 3. Review action items
> 1. ACTION: Kelly, Jan, and Jim - develop replacement for list of
> specific commands for WG review [recorded in
> http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-ua-minutes.html#action01]
> -Proposal -
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0068.html
>
> 2. ACTION: Kelly - draft more definitive fact-based opinion from IE
> developers [recorded in
> http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-ua-minutes.html#action02]
>
> 3. ACTION: Gregory - wordsmith user configuration, persistence and
> override GL [recorded in
> http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-ua-minutes.html#action03]
>
> Previous Action Items not yet resolved
>
> ACTION: Allanj Clarify- The user agent provides at least one
> prominent keyboard command (e.g. escape key) to move keyboard focus to a
> default location. [http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html#action04]
> - current thoughts 'Keyboard Trap'-
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0063.html
>
> ACTION: jb check on the pending question about timing of next
> publication vs timing of charter review for rechartering obligation
> [http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html#action01]
>
> ACTION: KFord Clarify - Rendered content (e.g. by character,
> word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or
> selected using the keyboard (consistent with operating system
> conventions). [http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html#action03]
>
> Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator & Webmaster
> Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
> 1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
> voice 512.206.9315 fax: 512.206.9264 http://www.tsbvi.edu/
> "We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964
>
>
>
>
--
Jan Richards, M.Sc.
User Interface Design Specialist
Adaptive Technology Resource Centre (ATRC)
Faculty of Information (i-school)
University of Toronto
Email: jan.richards@utoronto.ca
Web: http://jan.atrc.utoronto.ca
Phone: 416-946-7060
Fax: 416-971-2896
Received on Thursday, 7 August 2008 19:57:28 UTC