Re: Minutes for User Agent Teleconference for March 27 2008

Hi David,

What would be useful is the types of keyboard commands provided in the 
MacOS and any MacOS specific terminology that might be used.

Cheers,
Jan



David Poehlman wrote:
> Not sure what you are after with regard to apple, but there's lots of 
> documentation on their web.
> 
> How can I help?
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jan Richards" <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>
> To: "'WAI-ua'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:10 PM
> Subject: Minutes for User Agent Teleconference for March 27 2008
> 
> 
> 
> Minutes:
> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-minutes.html
> 
> Action Items:
> 
> ACTION: Gregory to Review Linux Foundation/Open Accessibility documents
> for terminology
> 
> ACTION: jb contact d michael & mb janes abt apple rep on discussion of
> keyboard interaction terminology, feasibility etc
> 
> ACTION: SH to Look up MS keyboard actions in MSDN.
> 
> 
> Full text:
> 
> Attendees
> Present
> KFord, Allanj, Jan, Judy, Cantor, Gregory_Rosmaita, SeanH
> Regrets
> Chair
> Jim Allan
> Scribe
> Jan
> Contents
> Topics
> 1. Keyboard Access
> Summary of Action Items
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <scribe> Scribe: Jan
> 
> 370 not 270
> 
> JA: We have a bunch of people on the call
> 
> All: Introductions...
> 
> SH: Is officially now the alternate for this group...
> ... Accessibility business group
> 
> GR: Introduces self
> 
> JB: Does WAI stuff
> ... Will be UAWG co-chair 3-6 months
> 
> AC: Hoping to be invited expert on keyboard access
> 
> JB: Group is in process of developing new charter
> ... By next meeting it will be public to group
> ... Group needs to be rechartered for rec track work for uaag2
> 
> JA: Next wee, I'll give regrets
> 
> JB: Me too
> 
> JA: will work it out online
> ... Today we have invited guests for keyboard access
> ... Access to keyboard interface of browser itself and content for users
> NOT using AT
> ... Part of discoverable etc.
> 
> 1. Keyboard Access
> JA: Current version in public WD:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080312/
> ... THen also two links as we got more into this:
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html
> 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0053.html
> 
> JA: There are lots of nuances
> ... So this is not programmatic determinable...
> ... It's about ability to see and ineefficiently use
> 
> JB: Some background...lots of talk in TEITAC 508 group over past 4-6 weeks
> ... In the end, there seemed to be 3 distinct aspects...
> ... 1. Programmatic access via AT
> ... SH might have concerns about that one so good to talk about
> ... 2. Also peripheral issue how keyboard shortcuts get documented- at
> end of TEITAC we said available in "electronic documentation"
> ... Looks like would have been likely concenssu
> ... 3. What kinds of shortcuts can be indicated
> ... This was much trickier to figure out welll
> ... I will be commenting that we didn't get close enough to wording on this
> ... So hoping to get good solutions on this in UAAG2 and then maybe
> suggesting wording back to TEITAC committee
> 
> AC: Good preamblr
> 
> JA: So...
> 
> JB: Should we look at the draft?
> 
> JA: OK
> 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080312/#principle-operable
> 
> Guideline 4.1
> 
> SH: Reasonable intro of TEITAC discussion
> 
> <AllanJ> discussion emails a)
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html
> b)http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0053.html
> 
> SH: In summary my issues are about scoping
> 
> JR: Clarifies timeline on those emails
> 
> GR: Just wanted to ask about electronic documentation
> ... Makes me think online documentation
> 
> JB: More than that...and other individual said could be on CDROM
> ... I'm ok as long as it is accessible electonically....
> ... Not immediate access issue
> 
> GR: OK because if online...should be locally cached when refreshed
> 
> <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask on JB's point 2 if "electronic" means
> "online" and if so, shouldn't caching of such documents locally be a
> requirement?
> 
> AC: Reading over principal 4....
> ... Some comments ...when I look at 4...
> ... Ensure full keyboard access is too vague
> ... So can do all be keyboard...
> ... Also efficiency is vital
> ... Then that they all be discoverable
> ... Then reading note....
> ... Should be careful about term "keyboard shortcuts"
> ... Should be thinking about general techniques ...
> ... Not about memorizing shortcuts
> ... More like conveying keyboard access, rather than shortcuts which is
> specific mechanism
> 
> JA: Thanks
> ... The guideline is short mnemonic thing...
> ... Meat of it is the success criteria
> ... @@'s are notes to ourselves
> 
> JB: Comment about termininology...
> ... Very useful to get better shorthand for discussing these things
> ... In TEITAC often got tripped up by saying "kyeaboard shortcuts"
> ... Generally don't like loits of specialized jargon but maybe useful here.
> ... Looking again....
> ... Language you were wondering about is what's in our note...
> 
> SH: Issue/question on 4.1.1....
> ... You have "operate all of the functions included in the user
> interface"...
> ... IN WCAG, TEITAC...all the functions that can be gotten at in the
> user interface,,,,
> ... Not necessirliy clear
> 
> JR: Points out "This applies to at least one mechanism per "browsing
> outcome"@@DEFINE@@, allowing non-keyboard accessible mechanisms to
> remain available (e.g., providing resizing with mouse-"handles" and with
> keystrokes).@@"
> ... Agreed that it might not be clear
> 
> JA: Some things in 4.1....not necassirly things we have issues with...
> ... Looking at
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html
> 
> AC: Anything about visual indicators
> 
> NOTE: Keyboard shortcut probably needs a definition that excludes
> 
> keyboard controls for sequential navigation (arrow keys, ENTER, TAB, etc.)
> 
> SH: In MS we have accelerator key...and then we have shortcut keys
> ... Accelerator key moves you faster to visible things...shortcut keys
> go to hiddent things..then there are keys to drive mouse etc
> 
> JB: I think we really need to collect relevant vocab
> 
> JR: Does someone have this already?
> 
> SH: MSDN might have something?
> 
> AC: Think it's really important to get crisp defintions
> ... All tend to blend together
> 
> JA: Gregory, with your linux work...if you could find terminilogy would
> be useful
> 
> KF: MacOS has same concepts, I'll have to go look
> 
> GR: Tried to get Apple into keyboard group
> 
> <scribe> ACTION: SH to Look up MS keyboard actions in MSDN. [recorded in
> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-minutes.html#action01]
> 
> <oedipus> ACTION: Gregory to Review Linux Foundation/Open Accessibility
> documents for terminology [recorded in
> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-minutes.html#action02]
> 
> <judy> ACTION: jb contact d michael & mb janes abt apple rep on
> discussion of keyboard interaction terminology, feasibility etc
> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-minutes.html#action03]
> 
> GR: Just want to tell people that they can check minutes on mailing list
> archives
> 
> <KFord> One example of MSDN on keyboards is
> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms645526.aspx
> 
> GR: Also gives "minutes" URL
> 
> JA: Back to message...
> 
> (1) Visual Keyboard Shortcut Indicator ("Chrome"): Provide a user
> 
> setting in which currently visible user interface "chrome" components
> 
> visually indicated their keyboard shortcuts, IF ANY (e.g., with
> 
> accesskey letters underlined).
> 
> AC: So refers specifically to what keys are
> ... In FF, tabs have no indications
> 
> SH: So this one brings out issue clearly...
> ... In windows...press Alt...
> ... Brings up mode...Alt-F....moves focus but doesn't activate...but ctrl S
> 
> KF: But actually those actually do do something....
> 
> SH: So yes distinguishing functionality versus operating the UI
> 
> JB: So if I hit alt key I get ....underlines first letter....
> ... Then can visually scan....
> ... But everything has visual indicator....
> ... Good for someone with limited hand use...
> 
> KF: Alt just activates menu bar
> 
> <AllanJ> JR: Alt shifts focus to menu bar, Alt-F, O activates 'open'
> 
> <AllanJ> ... some keys move focus, others activate a control
> 
> SH: Yes...so only talking about indicators you can see
> 
> JB: One thing I worry about is "sequential"
> 
> SH: Think this is reasonable
> ... Thinks "IF ANY" is important...some items don't have any direct
> keyboard shortcuts
> 
> AC: By convention when on menu....up and down arrow keys provide a way
> to navigate in direction of arrow keys
> 
> SH: Nothing in UI that makes you know that arrows do something
> ... Implicit
> 
> JA: In windows when I do an alt-F...
> ... There are other actionable keys....O....to Open
> ... Think that's what JB is getting at
> 
> SH: IN IE , "favourites" list is dynamic so don't have accelerators
> 
> AC: But can use alphabetical keys
> 
> JA: Nuance there we need to try and capture
> ... Tool may provide efficient nav...but without indicator...
> 
> GR: You would also want to capture ability for user to resort
> 
> eg. to be able to alphabetize
> 
> KF: Yes can sort favourites but not allowed to sort items in other menus
> 
> JB: I don't really use IE...but...
> ... When I get to bookmark menu...
> ... I'm looking for tools tha tlet me organize, but also I'm more
> tolerant of sequential access since I "caused the mess" maybe?
> 
> GR: When using windows in classic mode, can have personalized
> menus...can also hide infrequentally used things
> 
> In some other tools can move things around in menus
> 
> AC: In office products it was easy to customize menus
> ... Grouping etc.
> ... Doing software customization ... avbility to remove unused items is
> very important
> 
> <oedipus> amen (plus 1)
> 
> SH: THere is still lots of customization in Office2007
> 
> JB: Higly discoverable customization important
> 
> JA: Need to jump in...
> ... Even though Judy and I won't be here next week...discussion should
> continue next week
> 
> KF: Discussion seems to have veered...
> ... Are we saying I should be able to specify chrome elements and layout
> of them?
> 
> GR: Yes
> 
> AC: Yes
> ... Logical end of fully customizable.
> 
> JR: Can chair next week.
> 
> JA: Very productive thanks
> 
> JB: Thanks
> 
> GR: Everything so interrelated
> 
> 
> 
> Jim Allan wrote:
>> User Agent Teleconference for March 28 2008
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> Chair: Jim Allan
>> Date: Thursday, March 28 2008
>> Time: 2:00-3:00 pm Boston Local Time, USA (19:00-20:00 UTC/GMT)
>> Call-in: Zakim bridge at: +1-617-761-6200, code 82941# for UK use
>> 44-117-270-6152
>> IRC: sever: irc.w3.org, port: 6665, channel: #ua.
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Regrets:
>>
>> Agenda:
>>
>> 0. Regrets, agenda requests, or comments to the list
>>
>> 1. Keyboard Access -
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080312/
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html
>>
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0053.html
>>
>>
>> Jim Allan, Webmaster & Statewide Technical Support Specialist
>> Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
>> 1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
>> voice 512.206.9315    fax: 512.206.9264  http://www.tsbvi.edu/
>>>>> Share to Win! <<<
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-- 
Jan Richards, M.Sc.
User Interface Design Specialist
Adaptive Technology Resource Centre (ATRC)
Faculty of Information Studies
University of Toronto

   Email: jan.richards@utoronto.ca
   Web:   http://jan.atrc.utoronto.ca
   Phone: 416-946-7060
   Fax:   416-971-2896

Received on Friday, 28 March 2008 13:05:01 UTC