- From: Kelly Ford <kford@windows.microsoft.com>
- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:42:00 -0700
- To: 'WAI-UA list' <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
- CC: Marc Silbey <marcsil@windows.microsoft.com>, "aleventh@us.ibm.com" <aleventh@us.ibm.com>
All, Jan, Jim and myself exchanged e-mail on the action item around the charter. Below is the proposed text: 6 (NEW). Promote and support the development of user agent best practices and implementation guides for W3C technologies. Where appropriate, the resulting documents may be linked to by the UAWG or hosted by the Working Group as W3C Notes. This would be added to the charter at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/draft_uawg_charter_20mar08.html under the scope of work. Hopefully at today's conference call we could spend a few minutes discussing the implementation of this kind of scope change and the specific actions it would require. Kelly -----Original Message----- From: w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Jan Richards Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 12:33 PM To: 'WAI-UA list' Cc: Marc Silbey; aleventh@us.ibm.com Subject: Minutes for User Agent Teleconference for 17 April 2008 Minutes: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/17-ua-minutes.html Action Items: KF, JA, JR: Think about charter change to take into account user agent implementations...eg link to HTML5 or publishing note as in ARIA Full text: 1. Charter review http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/draft_uawg_charter_20mar08.html JA: Says what we are going to do for a couple years ... Which will mostly be UAAG2 KF: Question about success criteria.... ... Success criteria don't include testing materials...should they? JA: Don't know JR: Sure let's add it KF: Other than that it looks ok? JA: OK <oedipus_laptop> what about a UA Support For... type document which is maintained to document conformance / support? JR: I was following WCAG's kead on how to fill in charter <oedipus_laptop> yes JR KF: So an implementation summary? ... How all browsers have done <oedipus_laptop> yes, 1.0 does, but it hasn't been updated since 2003 - i have an action item to update it JA: Right and that's part of the CR process - Implementation report <KFord> I'd be willing to help with this update, at least for IE. JR: Sometimes there is a lack of manpower to do a wide effort at conformance testing JA: OK we can focus a bit more on that after we get to Rec AL: Charter not a lot of detail <oedipus_laptop> http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/temp/w3c/test/until-user-agent-clauses.html <oedipus_laptop> http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/temp/w3c/test/WAI-UA-Support_2007.html AL: Felt requirements document is more useful (http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-UAAG20-requirements-20071031/) ... I'd be willing to provide feedback on the Req document JAL Good! We'd like feedback! JA: Anything else? AC: Mission... ... Should Mission also include statement that support documents will be created to the guideline. JA: Right but maybe that's just duplicating too much. AC: Interesting how repetitive the document is <oedipus_laptop> http://www.w3.org/WAI/Resources/WAI-UA-Support JR: These charters are very high level JA: We'll vote next week...then we need to go through Judy <Zakim> oedipus_laptop, you wanted to ask that Access Module issues be added to agenda GR: Acces module is important piece - is it ok if cross posts coninue? JA: Yes cross posts ok <KFord> Marc is on his way to my office. <oedipus_laptop> must activate be boolean? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Apr/0175.html <oedipus_laptop> redefining keys and user control cascade: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Apr/0176.html 2. Discuss/review ARIA UA Implementors Guide <oedipus_laptop> (both XHTML Access Module Issues) AL: Introduces self... ... Works on Firefox, WAI-PF, ARIA <oedipus_laptop> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria <oedipus_laptop> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-roadmap <oedipus_laptop> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-primer <oedipus_laptop> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices Marc Sibley Arrives http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_User_Agent_Implementors_Guide MS: Introduces self, works on IE and ARIA with WAI-PF ... So has been working with Simon and AL on this best practices guide JA: Would like to throw it open AL: My question is UA working group... <oedipus_laptop> platform specifics AL: How deep is UA going to get into platform specifics <oedipus_laptop> thought we were platform agnostic JA: In the past, not deep.... <oedipus_laptop> spec should be platform agnostic, techniques where to address JA: Gave some examples, but pretty agnostic AL: Right...from talking to other browser vendors...but majority of our work is platform specific.... ... WHat we really need is help coordinating between platforms KF: I don't see that in Guidelines doc it's in tech guide AL: Don't care about names of documents ... Just care about practical KF: But our first mission on UA is to be agnostic...in general this is what browser needs to do <oedipus_laptop> first, do no harm... KF: These are not UA reqs on platform A AL: OK if not you, then say that and someone else can do it ... Should I be doing it...implementors guide for ARIA... ... This is the kind of thing HTML should have done.... GR: I think the UAWG is trying to work directly with other working groups eg HTML5.... ... e.g. on the User Agent guidance from HTML45 ... e.g. on the User Agent guidance from HTML5 ... So we are giving feedback back to others AL: So ARIA implementors guide....not really best practices GR: Right that's what developers need AL: Then I'm told go to UA group who should be writing this ... Then WAI-UA responds that's not where are bread is buttered GR: We want to work with ARIA best practices... ... See ARIA as standard W3C way of feeding in to APIs... ... THen they can look up the mapping AL: Where do they look them up? GR: In appendices of ARIA Best Practices doc AL: Ok but doesn't map to the platform specifics ... OK it's developed....too big for best practices, not for authors ... Do you see my problem? MS: OK so you see these don't fit in Web developers doc... ... My opinion... ... I think as groups like HTML start to develop specs, must be a best practices implemention guide... ... I think HTML5 guide should be very developer-centric ... I don't think UA could do implementation guides for all of the formats ... UA is more consultants to all the different groups...but they need to do theri own <oedipus_laptop> aria to msaa mappings: (based on moz dev) http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/ARIA/BestPractices/API_MSAA MS: Since no one else doing ARIA, WAI should do it <oedipus_laptop> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/ARIA/BestPractices/API_IA2 JA: This is very detailed stuff having to do with browsers...UAWG always stayed at high level... <oedipus_laptop> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/ARIA/BestPractices/API_ATK JA: Implementation "on top" specified (in the past). <oedipus_laptop> aaronlev, do you want something more akin to http://a11y.org/a11y-dom-apis JA: The members of the working list aren't at this level AL: Good admission...I don't think you are ready for this JA: Well all the people left to work on ARIA over there ... Applies direcly but my concern is how many platforms are we going to do? Mobile other OS etc. ... How far does it go? AL: Pretty far KF: Unless we expand charter ... We don't cover this ... ARIA hot now, but something else will be hot in 5 years ... At that time they should be able to go to UAAG and found out what they need to be able to do with their format AL: Not just me, take Opera developers ... CMN was on user agent before ... But what they really need is list of all HTML attributes etc. ... Since it's not there they'll reverse engineer FF etc. <oedipus_laptop> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/TS/ <oedipus_laptop> (UAAG 1.0 test suite) AL: I look at top level stuff for a but, but then focus on low level ... Maybe you could be more of a host for a community to work on things GR: Well the mappings should be standard and Access API dependent KF: So....not in charter now.... <oedipus_laptop> ARIA provide standard calls to accessibility APIs KF: But middle ground could be to facilitate coordination between browser developers AL: We put our wiki on ???...because it is neutral KF: So I'd be comfortable with facilitation....vs. we the user agent does the deep dive... ... But needs charter changes AL: Ultimately I'd like to have software tools to know if things are done correctly or not <oedipus_laptop> hyper-specific documents are a danger - people often implement off of a table or checklist rather than understanding the logic and structure, which leads to "dumb" implementations KF: But you the ARIA group would be responsible for the validators GR: My concern is that in hyper-specific documents...people implement of table but not necessarily ....understand concepts ... ARIA is there in the middle and it is APIs to move to it AL: Access APIs are rich enough...but the APIs per platform are different MS: Totally agree .... each group developping technology needs to think end to end... ... So this is why I think it should go along side the other ARIA docs GR: We are talking about access to DOM....so ARIA developers not responsible end to end....because APIs have role AL: We do want to try to ensure that the user agents do things the same on the various platforms GR: Violent agreement... <AllanJ> JR: PF says it doesn't want to host. UA could host, non-rec track items. There is some presedent <AllanJ> JR: Why UA space and not PF space GR: Are we then responsible? ... Is this stuff formally coming out of ARIA best practices AL: Yes MS: Fine with UA, but as we make changes to ARIA....will change ARIA implementation guide <oedipus_laptop> q} to say that aria is the abstract the DHTML style guide is the where the abstract meets hardware AL: So...accessibility needs to be living breathing documents ... Take live regions for example, we'lll learn a lot GR: Right so PF defines abstract but let's DHTML style guide to define details KF: we are inagreement I think.... ... To me PF working group still responsible for technologies they develop ... We can consult but can't be experts on all formats <oedipus_laptop> strong plus one to KF's last statement - work in liaison with other WG to advise and counsel UA conformance/implementation/requirements KF: So we could expand charter to host best practices for other formats... ... But not being experts in them AC: So we are just high level things <oedipus_laptop> also need to address ARIA for those without assistive technology (native UA support) KF: THink so....value of high level base requirements JA: Right MS: Driving key accessible principles into different techs <oedipus_laptop> http://a11y.org/kafs <oedipus_laptop> http://a11y.org/kafs-gta <oedipus_laptop> the second URI is generic test assertions EJ: (Earl Johnson) in Linux foundation...we callled them generic test assertions due to differences across platforms ... Can you said it this range, can yout turn on/off beep ... Then up to UA developer to figure out how they will meet that test JA: That's how we've operated.... ... UAAG doesn't get down to platform, programming languages... <oedipus_laptop> detailed work on wiki? JA: But what I'm hearing today is that UAWG could provide the space <oedipus_laptop> precedent: EO working on ARIA educational materials GR: Think EO is working on educational stuff for ARIA <scribe> ACTION: KF, JA, JR to Think about charter change to take into account user agent implementations...eg link to HTML5 or publishing note as in ARIA [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/17-ua-minutes.html#action01] JA: Marc and Aaron, we've reached end of time...do you want to come back? AL: So we are pushing format groups to produce user agent implementation techniques GR: Yes AL: So the requiements don't get down to APIs ... Guess I could come in, but would prefer just to review text, emaiols etc MS: I could prob come back thurs but will talk to Kelly http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_User_Agent_Implementors_Guide Summary of Action Items [NEW] ACTION: KF, JA, JR to Think about charter change to take into account user agent implementations...eg link to HTML5 or publishing note as in ARIA [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/17-ua-minutes.html#action01] [End of minutes] Jim Allan wrote: > User Agent Teleconference for 17 April 2008 > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Chair: Jim Allan > Date: Thursday, 17 April 2008 > Time: 2:00-3:00 pm Boston Local Time, USA (19:00-20:00 UTC/GMT) > Call-in: Zakim bridge at: +1-617-761-6200, code 82941# for UK use > 44-117-370-6152 > IRC: sever: irc.w3.org, port: 6665, channel: #ua. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Agenda: > > 0. Regrets, agenda requests, or comments to the list > > 1. Charter review > http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/draft_uawg_charter_20mar08.html > > 2. Discuss/review > http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_User_Agent_Implementors_Guide > > > Jim Allan, Webmaster & Statewide Technical Support Specialist > Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired > 1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756 > voice 512.206.9315 fax: 512.206.9264 http://www.tsbvi.edu/ > "We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964 > > > -- Jan Richards, M.Sc. User Interface Design Specialist Adaptive Technology Resource Centre (ATRC) Faculty of Information Studies University of Toronto Email: jan.richards@utoronto.ca Web: http://jan.atrc.utoronto.ca Phone: 416-946-7060 Fax: 416-971-2896
Received on Thursday, 24 April 2008 14:42:43 UTC