Re: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3 April 2008 Call)

we are writing guidelines here so we have some wiggle room.  I wasn't asking 
for waiting.  I was just asking that we put something in about the future so 
as not to close the door completely.  Neural may not be as far away as you 
think.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sean Hayes" <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>
To: "David Poehlman" <poehlman1@comcast.net>; "Jan Richards" 
<jan.richards@utoronto.ca>; "Gregg Vanderheiden" <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
Cc: "'WAI-UA list'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 5:46 PM
Subject: RE: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3 April 2008 Call)



Almost certainly, but how long do you want to wait? A standard needs to find 
a balance somewhere between the way things are done now, and the possibility 
of direct neural control of strong AI machines 30 years from now.

I think Jan's proposal is pretty good and in line with other contemporary 
standards.

Sean Hayes
Media Acessibility Strategist
Accessibility Business Unit
Microsoft

Office:  +44 118 909 5867,
Mobile: +44 7875 091385


-----Original Message-----
From: David Poehlman [mailto:poehlman1@comcast.net]
Sent: 08 April 2008 22:42
To: Jan Richards; Gregg Vanderheiden
Cc: Sean Hayes; 'WAI-UA list'
Subject: Re: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3 April 2008 Call)

Is there a possibility that the complexity may be reduced by future
technical advance?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan Richards" <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>
To: "Gregg Vanderheiden" <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
Cc: "'David Poehlman'" <poehlman1@comcast.net>; "'Sean Hayes'"
<Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>; "'WAI-UA list'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3 April 2008 Call)


Hi all,

So how about:

4.1.1 Keyboard Operation: All functionality can be *operated via the
keyboard* using *sequential* and/or *direct* keyboard commands that do
not require specific timings for individual keystrokes, except where the
underlying function requires input that depends on the path of the
user's movement and not just the endpoints (e.g., *free hand drawing*).


Notes for proposal:

1. Might be more clear if we could define "free hand drawing" with some
of the ideas in the current discussion would help make clear why an
exception is needed.

2. The bit about *sequential* and *direct* is needed in UAAG but not
WCAG 2.0 because the two guidelines handle keyboard control of the mouse
differently (i.e. WCAG conformance does not cover AT's, but UAAG
conformance can). My proposal for redefining the terms is at:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0004.html


Cheers,
Jan





,
Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
> This is a good description of what and why it is an exception.
>
> Any drawing that can be done with a ruler etc would NOT be an exception.
> But truly freehand can't be done by parameter except with an
> excruciatingly
> large number of data points.  If a product wanted to try to make this
> available from the keyboard there is no bar.  But it would not be required
> because, in general, it would not be reasonable for anyone to be
> productive
> (even for personal use) doing input of that type.
>
> For those what would like to try this, there are drawing programs designed
> to provide artistic output from minimal input.
>
>
> Gregg
>  -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> If Attachment is a mail.dat try http://www.kopf.com.br/winmail/
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jan Richards [mailto:jan.richards@utoronto.ca]
>> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 7:40 PM
>> To: David Poehlman
>> Cc: Gregg Vanderheiden; 'Sean Hayes'; 'WAI-UA list'
>> Subject: Re: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
>> April 2008 Call)
>>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> You're right in theory, but it's a question of complexity
>> (and thus practicality). When a drawing pad is used to
>> "paint" a "brush stroke" on an electronic "canvas" the result
>> is "just" a static bitmap...but it is an extremely complex
>> one that took as input the stylus's speed, pressure and
>> movement in 2-D space over hundreds of time points as inputs.
>> While these could be specified by a large number of numeric
>> parameters, there is a practical limit.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Jan
>>
>> David Poehlman wrote:
>>> so you are saying free hand drawing cannot be done via the
>> keyboard?
>>> I agree flying a vehicle or even driving one might be collosally
>>> difficult if possible, but Unless I'm missing something,
>> anything that
>>> is stationary can be done with a keyboard.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Gregg Vanderheiden" <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
>>> To: "'Sean Hayes'" <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>; "'Jan Richards'"
>>> <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>; "'David Poehlman'"
>> <poehlman1@comcast.net>
>>> Cc: "'WAI-UA list'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 2:00 PM
>>> Subject: RE: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
>> April 2008
>>> Call)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The exception (which is in TEITAC and WCAG) is
>>>
>>> [Except where]  the underlying function requires input that
>> depends on
>>> the [full] path of the user's movement and not just the endpoints.
>>>
>>>
>>> So the exception isn't about drawing that can be done with
>> rubber band
>>> lines or anything that can be (easily) specified without a
>> near infinite number of
>>> data points  -   but rather to things like freehand drawing.
>>>
>>> This provision interacts with the timing provision to also
>> not require
>>> keyboard access to things like flying a helicopter in real-time.
>>>
>>> We are doing some work to look at the limits of different types of
>>> input devices for different tasks.  It is interesting and
>> challenging
>>> when you get down to the details.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gregg
>>>  -- ------------------------------
>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>>> If Attachment is a mail.dat try http://www.kopf.com.br/winmail/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org
>>>> [mailto:w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Sean Hayes
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:15 AM
>>>> To: Jan Richards; David Poehlman
>>>> Cc: WAI-UA list
>>>> Subject: RE: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
>> April 2008
>>>> Call)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The TEITAC exception does not cover all drawing, only that which
>>>> really requires real time capture (such handwriting
>> analysis, or as
>>>> exhibited by some paint type applications where pressure
>> and velocity
>>>> affect the final stroke). Basic line drawing, shapes and
>> stuff like
>>>> that could be done via the keyboard.
>>>>
>>>> Sean Hayes
>>>> Media Acessibility Strategist
>>>> Accessibility Business Unit
>>>> Microsoft
>>>>
>>>> Office:  +44 118 909 5867,
>>>> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org
>>>> [mailto:w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Jan Richards
>>>> Sent: 04 April 2008 21:40
>>>> To: David Poehlman
>>>> Cc: WAI-UA list
>>>> Subject: Re: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
>> April 2008
>>>> Call)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Dave,
>>>>
>>>> I'm not very comfortable with exceptions either...and
>> didn't take it
>>>> lightly writing it...
>>>>
>>>> How would you want to handle drawing, etc.? Driving the mouse with
>>>> keys or do you have something else in mind?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Jan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David Poehlman wrote:
>>>>> We had a big discussion about this in the ITTac.
>>>>> "available. The only exception is for underlying functions
>>>> that depend
>>>>> on the path of the user's movement and not just the
>>>> endpoints (e.g., drawing)."
>>>>> Suffice it to say that I take exception with the exception.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Jan Richards" <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>
>>>>> To: "WAI-UA list" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 4:08 PM
>>>>> Subject: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3 April 2008
>>>>> Call)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The other thing we were doing on the 3 April 2008 UAWG call was
>>>>> looking at the Level A requirements of 4.1. I made some
>>>> notes from the
>>>>> discussion and have tried to turn them into a proposal that also
>>>>> attempts to bring in the requirements for "visual indicators":
>>>>>
>>>>> ORIGINAL Wording:
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/#principle-operable
>>>>>
>>>>> NEW Wording Ideas:
>>>>>
>>>>> Level A Success Criteria for Guideline 4.1
>>>>>
>>>>> 4.1.1 Keyboard Operation: All functionality can be
>>>> *operated via the
>>>>> keyboard*, even if pointing device-only modes of
>> operation are also
>>>>> available. The only exception is for underlying functions
>>>> that depend
>>>>> on the path of the user's movement and not just the
>>>> endpoints (e.g., drawing).
>>>>> 4.1.2 Keystroke Precedence: The precedence of keystroke
>>>> processing is
>>>>> documented (e.g., user agent interface, then user agent
>> extensions,
>>>>> then content features administered by the user agent such as
>>>>> accesskey, and then executable content).
>>>>>
>>>>> 4.1.3 No Keyboard Trap: When the content display has focus,
>>>> a standard
>>>>> keyboard command is always available that can "back out"
>>>> the focus by
>>>>> one level in the content hierarchy. From the top level of the
>>>>> hierarchy, this command moves focus to the user agent's
>>>> chrome (e.g.,
>>>>> the address bar).
>>>>>
>>>>> 4.1.4 Caret Text Navigation: Views that render text also
>>>> support the
>>>>> standard text area conventions for the platform (e.g.,
>> "arrow" key
>>>>> navigation, shift-to-select mechanism).
>>>>>
>>>>> 4.1.5 Indicating Direct Keyboard Command (Chrome): A mode
>>>> is provided
>>>>> in which any *direct keyboard commands* associated with the
>>>> currently
>>>>> displayed controls in the user agent chrome are indicated:
>>>>> (a) visually at the location of the control (e.g. with an
>> accesskey
>>>>> underlined, with an overlay), and
>>>>> (b) centrally in a programmatically available fashion
>>>> (e.g., the menu
>>>>> system).
>>>>>
>>>>> 4.1.6 Indicating Direct Keyboard Command (Content Display):
>>>> A mode is
>>>>> provided in which any *direct keyboard commands* associated
>>>> with the
>>>>> currently displayed controls in the content display are indicated:
>>>>> (a) visually at the location of the control (e.g. with an
>> overlay),
>>>>> and
>>>>> (b) centrally in a programmatically available fashion
>>>> (e.g., a list of
>>>>> accesskeys).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> NOTES:
>>>>>
>>>>> 4.1.4 Separate Activation: REMOVED -DUPLICATES 3.12.11
>>>>>
>>>>> 4.1.7 "Chrome" Navigation: REMOVED - IMPLICIT IN 4.1.1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Jan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jan Richards, M.Sc.
>>>> User Interface Design Specialist
>>>> Adaptive Technology Resource Centre (ATRC) Faculty of Information
>>>> Studies University of Toronto
>>>>
>>>>    Email: jan.richards@utoronto.ca
>>>>    Web:   http://jan.atrc.utoronto.ca
>>>>    Phone: 416-946-7060
>>>>    Fax:   416-971-2896
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Jan Richards, M.Sc.
>> User Interface Design Specialist
>> Adaptive Technology Resource Centre (ATRC) Faculty of
>> Information Studies University of Toronto
>>
>>    Email: jan.richards@utoronto.ca
>>    Web:   http://jan.atrc.utoronto.ca
>>    Phone: 416-946-7060
>>    Fax:   416-971-2896
>>
>>
>>
>
>

--
Jan Richards, M.Sc.
User Interface Design Specialist
Adaptive Technology Resource Centre (ATRC)
Faculty of Information Studies
University of Toronto

   Email: jan.richards@utoronto.ca
   Web:   http://jan.atrc.utoronto.ca
   Phone: 416-946-7060
   Fax:   416-971-2896

Received on Tuesday, 8 April 2008 22:26:47 UTC