Re: Is there any guidance on CSS keywoard 'float'?

There are some elements that use float: left | right , which
only lets content move to the side of other content to create
columns.  Then there is position: absolute which takes content
out of document order and puts it at specific locations.  In
either case the content has to be in some type of container.

The caret behavior of caret is not very consistent in
Mozilla/Opera.  SUN has been working on trying to improve
caret navigation for use with their screen reader.  I think
SUN is trying to get the code back into the main trunk of
Mozilla/Firefox.

Jon
 

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:43:26 -0400
>From: Al Gilman <Alfred.S.Gilman@IEEE.org>  
>Subject: Re: Is there any guidance on CSS keywoard  'float'?  
>To: Jon Gunderson <jongund@uiuc.edu>, Peter Korn
<Peter.Korn@Sun.COM>
>Cc: Ginn.Chen@Sun.COM, W3C WAI-UAWG <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
>
>
>[distribution note: this reply drops w3c-wai-cg to delve into
the 
>substance of the issue.]
>
>At 8:19 AM -0500 5/10/05, Jon Gunderson wrote:
>>Peter,
>>The web content accessibility guidelines (WCAG) would not deal
>>with the browser functions for caret navigation of content,
>>unless the caret was being controlled by a web application
>>creating its own user interface.  I beleive you are looking
>>for guidence in the behavior of caret navigation when some
>>elements are being graphically positioned using either CSS
>>position or CSS float properties. 
>>
>>Recommendation
>>
>>In this case my recommendation is that the caret should follow
>>document order.  The caret may seem to "jump" to another part
>>of the document using document order if the author CSS is
>>enabled, but I think it provides the best compatibility since
>>some users will turn off stylesheets or apply their own
>>stylesheet.
>>
>>Coordination
>>
>>But I will bring this up at our next WAI Coordination Group
>>(CG) meeting to see what WCAG and PF have to say about the
>>issue.  I beleive the next CG meeting is May 18th.
>>
>>Jon
>
>While moving through all the text in the textual order in the
>HTML page is sufficient to give some means of access to all
>the text, it doesn't seem like what the mobility-impaired user
>looking at the layout would most want.
>
>Let's take a step back and let me try to understand the issue.
>
>Caret navigation has up-a-line, down-a-line motions that
>relate to the graphic text as laid out, not the abstract text
>structure pre-layout in the HTML.  Maybe moving the caret
>in and out of a floated box should take some note of the
>layout, too.
>
>How does navigation relate to frames at this point?
>
>In other words, to move from frame to frame, can you do this
within
>caret navigation, or is another kind of navigation required?
>
>The reason I ask is that a floated text box is probably
logically a
>sidebar, or at least a distinct functional unit with respect
to any
>text in the enclosing box.
>
>On the hypothesis that the text in the floated box is a
sidebar, and
>that sidebars are concurrent, that is to say have no logical
order
>relation with regard to the main flow, but are accessed first or
>second at user option; it would seem to make the most sense
to treat
>a floated or absolute-positioned box as a strong cell wall and
>require special action to jump that wall,  The caret would
normally
>give precedence to following the text flow on one side or the
other
>of the wall.
>
>I would like a more extensive description of the
functionality that
>is not present when there is a floated box with text in it. 
Are there
>clauses in the requirements document that fail to be satisfied in
>some way for text in a float-positioned box?
>
>Does the caret move across the box boundary when you don't
want it
>to? Does the caret never make it into the box?
>
>[if the latter, it sounds like you are not getting the resolved
>values of the bounding box for the float after positioning.
This is
>not a problem of policy for UI behavior but data access witin the
>browser.]
>
>I would think that the requirements would at least be to
follow the text
>within a flow.  *A float is not in the flow[1].*  There
should also 
>be a requirement
>to navigate among distinct flows, but that may be in the UI
but not
>part of what you are calling caret navigation.
>
>[If it is not and there is some indirect way of entering the
float, such
>as a graphical move of the cursor, it could make sense that this
>verb include a snap-caret-to-cursor constraint.]
>
>Please give a clearer picture of what functions you think
should be
>supported that are not supported, either with the current
implementation
>or with the current design.
>
>Al
>
>[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visuren.html#floats
>
>
>
>>---- Original message ----
>>>Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:33:03 -0700
>>>From: Peter Korn <Peter.Korn@Sun.COM> 
>>>Subject: Re: Is there any guidance on CSS keywoard 'float'? 
>>  >To: Jon Gunderson <jongund@uiuc.edu>
>>>Cc: Ginn.Chen@Sun.COM, Peter Korn <Peter.Korn@Sun.COM>
>>>
>>>Hi Jon,
>>>
>>>Quoting Ginn Chen from Sun Beijing from the internal-to-Sun
>>bug report on
>>>Mozilla difficulties with http://news.yahoo.com/asiadisaster:
>>>
>>>--------- begin quote ----------
>>>
>>>The css class .ynelhalfblock is using float:left.
>>>We're not supporting Caret Browsing with CSS Keyword 'float'.
>>>ginn.chen@sun.com 2005-2-25 03:07:57 GMT
>>>
>>>In http://news.yahoo.com/asiadisaster
>>>'<style type="text/css"><!--@import
>>>url("http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/lib/hdr/ygma5.css");
>>body{margin:0px
>>>4px;}--></style>'
>>>In http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/lib/hdr/ygma5.css
>>>'#ygma #ygmaproplinks span{padding:22px 0 0;float:left;}'
>>>
>>>According to Mozilla/Gecko Keyboard Navigation Proposal
>>>http://www.mozilla.org/access/keyboard/proposal#X.
>>_Unresolved_Issues
>>>
>>>VIII. Unresolved Issues
>>>
>>>     1. How to access fixed/floating widget using keyboard?
>>>        Some widgets (most of them are ads) can be put
>>anywhere in the web page
>>>by specifying the absolute position attribute in CSS style.
>>Their physical
>>>position may be very different from their logical position.
>>>        NOTE: We didn't find anything in Web Content
>>Accessibility Guidelines
>>>2.0 discussing using fixed/floating widget in web pages.
>>>ginn.chen@sun.com 2005-03-09 06:10:01 GMT
>>>
>>>--------- end quote ----------
>>>
>>>Does this answer your question Jon?  If not, perhaps Ginn can
>>answer it more
>>>directly.
>>>
>>>
>>>Peter
>>>
>>>Jon Gunderson wrote:
>>>>  Peter,
>>>>  I am not sure what CSS keyboard 'float' means. 
>>>>
>>>>  There is a CSS float property for positiong content, but it
>>>>  does not have a keyboard  featue.
>>>>
>>>>  Could you give me a little more explaination of the
>>behavior
>>>>  and the code you think is causing the problem.
>>>>
>>>>  Jon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ---- Original message ----
>>>>
>>>>>Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 10:04:09 -0700
>>>>>From: Peter Korn <Peter.Korn@Sun.COM> 
>>>>>Subject: Is there any guidance on CSS keywoard 'float'? 
>>>>>To: Jon Gunderson <jongund@uiuc.edu>
>>>>>Cc: Peter Korn <Peter.Korn@Sun.COM>
>>>>>
>>>>>Greetings,
>>>>>
>>  >>>The website http://news.yahoo.com/asiadisaster (among
>>others)
>>>>
>>>>  uses the CSS
>>>>
>>>>>keyboard 'float', which Mozilla keynav is unable to deal
>>with.
>>>>>
>>>>>Do you know if the CSS accessibility group provides any
>>>>
>>>>  guidance on this?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>>Peter
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
>>>>  Director of IT Accessibility Services
>>>>  Campus Information Technologies and Educational Services
>>(CITES)
>>>>  and
>>>>  Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information
>>Technology
>>>>  Disability Resources and Education Services (DRES)
>>>>
>>>>  Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>>>  Fax: (217) 333-0248
>>>>
>>>>  E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu
>>>>
>>>>  WWW: http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/
>>>>  WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
>>Director of IT Accessibility Services
>>Campus Information Technologies and Educational Services (CITES)
>>and
>>Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information
Technology
>>Disability Resources and Education Services (DRES)
>>
>>Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>Fax: (217) 333-0248
>>
>>E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu
>>
>>WWW: http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/
>>WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>
>
>


Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
Director of IT Accessibility Services
Campus Information Technologies and Educational Services (CITES)
and 
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Disability Resources and Education Services (DRES)

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248

E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu

WWW: http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/
WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/

Received on Wednesday, 11 May 2005 00:58:59 UTC