- From: Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>
- Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:00:05 -0600
- To: w3c-wai-ua@w3.org
Attending: jg - Jon Gunderson mm - Matt May tl - Tim Lacy cl - Cathy Laws ss - Shawn Stableford ja - Jim Allan (scribe) Date: Thursday, 27th February 2003 Time: 2:00-3:00 pm Boston Local Time, USA (18:00-19:00 UTC/GMT) SS - Tech Access, company that does web access Introductions all around. Agenda Review Open Action Items jg - discuss jg comments to xhtml accessibility. is there consensus in the working group. time to work on test suites at face to face. XHTML jg - review comments [http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2003/02/xhtml2-comments.html] they make a strong statement about accessibility. use the term "selected", may need to work (clarify) definition of "selected" in relation to "focus" and "select" 2 new elements: proposed 'navigation list' element - designed for pull-down menu look and feel. 'label' element associated with 'nl'. may have some focus issues related to this. cl - can you use this as a select menu? jg - map elements . use as an alternative to 'map' is image not available or not rendered. also, use in place of 'area'. in the list section expected behavior is described as a pull-down menu cl - is this a select menu, use the items as an option in x-forms jg - depends how they are rendered. tables are rendered as a matrix of cells. but can be rendered differently, linearly based on info in scope. this is a good opportunity to reinforce separation of content from rendering with the xhtml working group. authors need to include structure in content, so users can render in alternative presentations. if users/browsers cannot do this, then authors will not include it. cl - behaviors jg - rendering depends on actions available. active and inactive areas need to talk about navigation lists. Sec. 508 collections of related links should be skipable and navigable to. Nav list could be used for this. Authors could use this to satisfy 508. allow for functionality to jump to nav list. cl - nothing for force authors to use this. jg - is this the right way to approach group cl - yes, its more confusing. you can have an href on any element, not just activateable elements. harder to get authors to do the accessible thing. href can now be an attribute for any element. mm - value in doing this. cl - from accessibility view, it is more difficult. currently, can put an event on anything, makes it difficult to find actional items. jg - xhtml is still in draft. tl - had a problem with authors, make container objects (div span) actionable, but no way to tell the user functionality exists. if it becomes a standard there may be a way to inform the user. cl - using javasript to make activateable elements. tl - you can make it mm - needs a lot more thought. ss - this could be very difficult for keyboard users, if every thing is a link mm - will these show up in tab order list. jg - uaag says they should be in tab order list. not clear if block level element will be part of tab order. not sure how it will work. tl - hope that it would work as it currently does. cl - select menu, how will it work, today only select menu has a problem like this. HPR uses control reading mode to get to menu, mm - image with source and href, huge paradigm shift. ss - this is getting into theory of hypertext. totally reworking what we have had for last 10 years. will just get rid of anchor all together. ?? want to switch over mm - not a goal of xhtml. want 2.o to be a clean break and get away from html. getting rid of legacy elements. rethink functionality. not going to be seamless. ss - thinking more from user side, not author. will they see a difference mm - user agent will change and users will have to change. things will look and feel differently. jg - how do you style this. how to show that there are sublinks mm - cascaded links will be difficult to render, no double or triple underline, will key off of style of href. still needs to be designed. jg - may extend bad authoring practice. mm - it is unclean to use <a href....><img....>, difficult to differentiate. jg - what does HPR does with nested anchors. cl - not sure. should use outside anchor. jg - add to test suite. jg - image with source cl - mm - inline content within the object element. better than alt, can do more with it. jg - every image becomes an object. mm - very important to use inline content, alternate images, links to long description, versions of alt. idea is that alt, title, and longdesc are limiting. using inline object text provides much more flexibility. cl - accessibility checker will have a hard time determining is alternative content is available. mm - can warn them well ahead of implementation. so they can figure it our ahead of time. jg - content already being ported to this format. jg - hypertext attribute - access key, keyboard bindings users should be able to query for keyboard bindings and change the binding to meet their needs. any comments. cl - saying author should list the binding. jg - no, user agent should tell user, like jaws 4.5 does currently. requirement of uaag and to remap. no standard keybindings, w3c will not do this, for internationalization reasons jg - imagemap, no browser will render alt for area if images are turn off or not available. they should provide the description of image area, which is now hundreds of way to do. jg - 8.9 heading elements. for authors to support structure, user agents must provide some functional behavior. should be able to get outline view. user agent should be able to navigate between header elements. this should be a standard feature for all browser. jg - add these item, to expected behaviors of user agents as part of the xhtml spec. if documented in the spec. it reinforces the requirements of UAAG. want to have a better defined list of behaviors. jg - 10.2 UA should be able to skip nav links move to next element beyond. then would satisfy 508 requirement of skipping nav elements. should have use cases associated with each of these. another feature of w3c recommendations is use scenarios. mm - education outreach has several documents related to this. cl - 508 requires skip nav link, if in a nav list, functionality would be the same. jg - if UA has this functionality, user would see a difference. if UA enabled cl - could make it look the same but act different. jg _ right nature of accessibility. thinks that look the same but functional entirely differently. cl - as a UA we try to make them work the same, regardless of how they are coded. jg - UA can do this. its a way for authors to functionally test that they have done something correctly. then HPR could have different function for skipping link or nav link. tl - leaves call. jg - assistive technology must compensate for poor markup. map and nav list are similar ways of doing the same thing. this is an attempt to get xhtml user agents to think about different nav schemes. should we add to this list. cl - may not provide that function singled out. nav list could be just one navigation type. don't want to be restricted. don't want the xhtml accessibility guidelines to conflict with uaag . worried about "exclusive". may be too restricting. HPR must meet both specifications. jg - makes note. jg - keyboard model of navigation. user can change default style of nav lists. problem for learning disabled population. see static list. mm - could be controlled in css. jg - right, should be implementing css. not sure how to render lists statically rather than pop-up mm - not sure. if anything specific in css for xhtml 2. jg - should be done through css styling property or value, display should have a new value for nav list. jg - 11.2 area alt rendering. area should have label element, to associate text with it. cl - never use label for area, but use it for map. jg - use label to title of map element. ss - everything supposed to be backward compatible. jg - if images off alt text for area is unavailable. coordinates for area. list elements can have coordinates. maybe all elements can have coordinates. cl - can't style rendering of alt jg - should be able to style conditional content. same styling as text content. xhtml linking module, forward and reverse links. user should be notified of same, and be able to navigate to them. why does w3 care about this when browsers don't do anything with it. mm - mozilla implements this. an additional tool bar will pop-up for navigation. ja - mozilla does same for style sheets, select multiple author supplied css. mm - Netscape does this live, and css is persistent for all subsequent pages. jg - reiterate, that there should be functionality associated with link element, as well as persistence for css selection. jg - object. mechanism for api to pass user text styling to the object, i.e.. foreground and background styling. for high contrast then applet will follow user setting. no method to pass that information to object. ss - if there is conversation between browser and object, they could transfer information. browser could be set up to know this information and pass this information to the object. jg- similar to object bounding the size of the object rendering and also pass the styling information to the object. or object could get styling information from the user/author style sheet. mm - need to think about it. cl - object should inherit system settings. jg - may not have access to system settings. object has final say over how it is rendered, can ignore or accept system settings. cl - asking the UA to pass the css and system styles. jg - active x can get system styles. dependent on Operating system. mm - dependent on skin palette (?) gnome or kde onscreen palette. jg - in a locked down system, dependent on what is available. no consensus mm - able to pull values from css. jg - can't assume css. mm - in context of xhtml, must assume it is there. in discussion with css folks, it is a write only mechanism for the author. don't want to derive values for jg- want access to foreground/backgroud and font metrics for object. cl - css doesn't apply to an application, should inherit the system fonts and colors. jg - but it should, for any object use these attributes to pass to object. should inherit browser setting, user may not have access to system settings but can change browser setting. ss - should be available cl - browser itself, doesn't apply css to chrome. jg - does in Netscape, one for chrome, one for content. cl - so Netscape would pass chrome to object. jg - should be either. this is an extension of width and height. should be what is used to render html not the chrome. cl - there are many different kinds of objects. menus group objects, many things that are not defined on a web page or within css. jg - no consensus. cl - if you have a css that maps to similar settings in object - then ok jg - only want forground/backgound font size and family. should have access to this info and object will decide how and where to apply this information within the object. would give applets an opportunity to style objects similarly to xhtml content. ss - more information is better. jg - currently applets have no ability to restyle themselves based on user preference. jg - change default rendering of nested objects ss - multimedia, if I am blind, skip the video, just sent the audio or the transcript. jg - browser would know what it can render, and give users option of choosing default render. ja - what about nested objects each with inline content. which is the browser to render. jg - objects should be nested to show alternate rendering. should inform the user of options available and be able to select between them. ss. - users could configure what to render and in what order. jg - there is global and local configuring. first function what is preferred default rendering - not flash or image, give me audio. or user query the object what options are available, then choose from options. jg - consensus from all concerning object rendering and options. jg - table linearization. ss - linearizing tables, can only linearize table horizontally. can't linearize by column. cl - can do that with HPR ss - but not with other agents. cl - mark up are not preventing you from doing that. jg - if you remove mark up can't find columnar markup. ja - perhaps use scope = col cl - currently the browser counts cells to render columns jg - may propose, but difficult because you can't render columns through css without calculation. want this available globally turn off all tables not specific tables. jg - any objections to sending to pf and html working group. meeting with qa group next week be sure to read relevant documents. implementation report update IE and Opera 7, mm - reviewing safari, they are on board. trying to get them to participate. not complete enough to be of value. Announcements 1. User Agent FTF Meeting in Boston, March 6-7 at all working group meeting Discussion 2. FTF meeting agenda 3. XHTML 2.0 Specification accessibility features (Draft comments from Jon Gunderson) 3. W3C Quality Assurance Draft Documents (for our review) a. QA Framework: Introduction b. QA Framework: Operational Guidelines c. QA Framework: Specification Guidelines 4. Implementation report and test suites Open Action Items JA: Create implementation report for IBM Home Page reader using HTML 4.01 test suites (27 Feb target date) MM: Create implementation report for Internet Explorer 5.2 for OSX using HTML 4.01 test suites MM: Check into updating evaluation for to included downloaded forms CG: Create implementation report for IBM Home Page reader using HTML 4.01 test suites JG: Check to see if resources are available for Coloin Koteles to continue development and editing of test suites CL: Review test suites for IBM Home Page reader JG: Schedule time with QA at FTFto talk about tools to help track dependencies between working groups and specifications Jim Allan, Webmaster & Statewide Technical Support Specialist Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired 1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756 voice 512.206.9315 fax: 512.206.9264 http://www.tsbvi.edu/ "I see the Earth. It is so beautiful."--first words spoken by human in space. 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Received on Thursday, 27 February 2003 16:04:38 UTC