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MINUTES(edited): W3C WAI User Agent Telecon 3 November 1999

From: Jon Gunderson <jongund@uiuc.edu>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 15:07:09 -0600
Message-Id: <>
To: w3c-wai-ua@w3.org

Chair: Jon Gunderson

Scribe: Ian Jacobs

David Poehlman
Mickey Quenzer
Kitch Barnicle
Mark Novak
Dick Brown
Jim Allan
Harvey Bingham
Al Gilman
Gregory Rosmaita

Rich Schwerdtfeger
Marja-Riitta Koivunen
Charles McCathieNevile

Action Items

Completed Action Items

    1.IJ: Redesign techniques document based on discussions at F2F meeting

    2.IJ: Update proposal for checkpoint 1.1 based todays discussion

    3.IJ: Add Note on proposed checkpoint 1.2 that it is a specialization 
of proposed checkpoint 1.1

    4.IJ: Add an example of standard output to 1.3.
      Refer to RS's email:

    5.IJ: Add Note on proposed checkpoint 1.4 that it is a specialization 
of proposed checkpoint 1.1

    6.IJ: Moved proposed Checkpoint 11.1 to Guideline 12 on documentation 
and make changes based on todays discussion

    7.IJ: Contact RealNetworks to agree to review last call draft when 
      Status: done

    8.JG: Include an annotation mechanism in current issues list mechanism 
for last call comments
      Status: Done

    9.JG: Contact HR on Eurpoean reviewers

   10.JG: Include an annotation mechanism in current issues list mechanism 
for last call comments
      Status: Done

   11.JG: Talk to Wilson Craig offline about contacts for assistive 
technology developers who may be interested in reviewing the document 
during last call
      Status: Sent proposal to send last call to all ATIA members

   12.MN: Propose a new definition of active element, based on keyboard 
navigation discussion at F2F meeting

   13.MN: Repropose wording for Ian's proposed Checkpoint 1.5

   14.GR: Send techniques for how to provide author info.

   15.GR: Write a proposal to address issues about spawned windows
      Status: comments are part of 29 October draft

   16.GR: Repropose Checkpoiont 2.5 on user defined keyboard bindings so 
that it's clear that there should be a cascade order whereby the user has 
      control or can concede control to the tool.
      Status: comments are part of 29 October draft

   17.CMN: Send info about MS Word provides this information to users

   18.DB: Contact Tim Lacy on reviewing guidelines with IE developers. Ask 
him to wait until next draft (probably Monday)
      Status: done

   19.DB: Propose split checkpoints about configuration
      Status: split on this call for highlighting the issue in last call

   20.HB: Contact Steve Anderson (of Dragon Systems) to agree to review 
last call draft when available.
      Status: Contacted , but no response

Continued Action Items

    1.IJ: Propose how the conformance checklist will be delivered

    2.HR: Find information about European contacts who may be interested in 
reviewing the document during last call

    3.TL: Get feedback from MS IE Team on usability of 5 October Techniques 
structure (wait for next draft).

    4.MN: Contact someone at United Cerebral Palsy to agree to review last 
call draft when available

    5.MR: Working on SMIL techniques

    6.DB: Contact person in Windows media group to agree to review last 
call draft when available

    7.MQ: Find someone from WinAmp, SigTuna to agree to review last call 
draft when available
      Status: still looking

New Action Items

    1.IJ: Send revision of table checkpoint to the list AND include in last 
call document

    2.IJ: Mark relative priority of Checkpoint 6.1 as a current issue for 
the group and we want last call comments

    3.IJ: Prepare guidelines document for last call, based on todays 

    4.IJ: Prepare techniques document for last call, based on current 
unprocessed techniques submissions

    5.IJ: Make 9 and 10 December F2F meeting at IBM in Austin, TX 
information available

    6.AG: Send HTML discussion to list related to table markup

    7.MN: Find a reviewer at Apple computer


Agenda [1]

[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/1999OctDec/0217.html

1) Review of action items:

IJ: Deliverance of conformance statement
Status : None done.

IJ: Review of last call by RealNetworks:
Status: Done.

MQ: Found possible contact at NullSoft (WinAmp)

JG: Last call annotation in issues list
Status: done.

JG: Contacted various people: Hans (no news), Wilson Craig, Tim Lacy.

MN: Active element text:
Status: Done.

MN: Proposed 1.5 wording.
Status: Done.

Madeleine Rothberg: Still waiting for techniques.

Dick Brown: Proposal to split 10.1?
Status: For this call.

GR: Issues about spawned windows?
Status: Not done.

GR: 2.5 cascading order is subsumed by proposed restructuring and I have 
techniques for it.
Status: Done.

GR: Providing author info:
Status: Done.

HB: Left message for Steve Anderson. No news.

JG: Sent email.

GR: I will look further into email for Foteos Macrides (Lynx).

2) Announcements:

1) 21 people have confirmed that they will review the document in last 
call. More people still pending.

IJ: Please note that these people will also be good sources for press 
support at Recommendation time. Keep the list handy!

JB: Linked from our home page.

JG: Anyone know anyone at Apple?

Action MN: Find a contact.

MQ: DialPad is a Web app that allows you to call on the Internet. It uses 
plug-ins and is Java/Web application.

3) Netscape keyboard support page posted.

JG: Include in techniques document in some form?

4) Confirmation that old Guideline 2 (Keyboard) was deleted.

Resolved: Ok.

5) Issue 108: Table summary information.

JG: Should this be for all user agents or in the section on dependent user 
agents? E.g., graphical UA conforms by presenting visual information, 
summary info,
header info.

/* Several people felt it was a general requirement for user agents */

AG: Table content already covered by another checkpoint (2.1). What's 
missing: 2.1 doesn't cover the *relationship* between the cell and the 
header. The
proximity must show through when rendered to the user. You could include 
"association" in support for HTML. I think the requirement in the area of this
checkpoint could stand to be clarified.

JG: Ensure that the user has access to relationships between elements.

AG: Yes, then line by line explanation in the techniques document.

MQ: Tables are so important that it's worth saying it directly.

KB: Is there a way to point out that the proposed table summary checkpoint 
is a special case of access to content?

AG: Content includes metadata.

DB: Are we asking the UA to give info about a table on demand?

AG: Yes. (e.g., context menu).

IJ: Should this checkpoint stand on its own as a specialization?

GR: Yes, specialization of 2.1.

IJ: Goals:
a) Capture goal of making table understandable.
b) Make applicable to user agents.

DB: Not sure if proposal is specific enough.

a) Should we be explicit in 2.1 or elsewhere that relationship information 
in general is important?

AG: To be clearer about what you need to do (orientation), you need to 
capitalize on relationships in HTML. And this is critical in the table area.

b) Tables:

IJ: Should we be vague (allowing binary verification, however) and just 
rely on suggestions in techniques?

JG: Any objection to adding checkpoint as stated? It seems to hold some 
info not in 2.1.

DB: Are we requiring the user agent to provide information that has not 
been supplied by the author?

AG: The repair techniques are more costly to implement than to implement HTML.

IJ: I agree with Dick that the requirement should be for what is supplied 
by the author.

Resolved: Incorporate proposed table checkpoint (without reference to 
"selected" table).

Action Ian: Send revision to the list AND include in document (without 
necessarily rediscussing on the phone).

Action Al: Send HTML discussion to list.

6) Issue 111: Relative priority checkpoints.

Refer to proposal from CMN on relative priorities as done in AUGL.

JG: I think there are very few checkpoints in the current doc that would 
require it. Also, 6.2 (implement W3C specs) is priority 2.

DB: I think consistency between guidelines is a good idea.

IJ: I support this proposal for the checkpoint in question.

DB: I realize that there's baggage in trying to explain relative priorities.

GR: I see both sides of the issue, but I've had problems with the sloughing 
off of problems to WCAG. Priorities in WCAG may be disputed there as well.

JG: We can revisit this in last call. May reconsider at the end to see if 
the issue actually arises.

DP: We can also provide direction in 6.2 to the effect of relative priorities.

IJ: I can live with Priority 1 through last call, but I think Charles' 
logic holds in our case.

JG: WCAG depends on some features of UA. So UA complying at level one 
should allow those options to be available to them.

GR: WCAG is clearly transitional. There are many user agent clauses. The 
user agent guidelines is more forward looking. UA needs to encourage authors to
use new features.

AG: It's proper for UAGL to assign something higher priority in user 
interface than what WCAG assigns it.

IJ: I propose accepting Pri 1 for last call and raising as an issue in last 

Resolved: Leave as Priority 1 and indicate that it's an issue in last call.

GR: When you send out last calls, please include a reference to the issues 

Action Ian: Include this in call for review.

7) Issue 109/110/105:

JG: Issue of whether user agent should be required to provide information 
about author-supplied configuration to the user.

DB: For UA-supplied, P1. For author-supplied, P3.

JG: Proposed: P3 checkpoint to provide info just about author-specified 

AG: It's important to know what will happen when you hit a key. It's not 
uninteresting to know where it came from. It's also interesting to know 
what's product
default and what isn't.

DB: So does this mean that 10.1 (input config) will remain P1 and will 
include author-specified?

JG: Anything the UA can reasonably know about.

DB: I don't think that the author-supplied info is a P1.

IJ: For me, there's a minimum of making known that some behavior is 
associated with a binding.

JG: So there is no consensus on 10.1 Priority. Possible candidate for 
relative priorities.

JG: Does input configuration apply to other issues than bindings? Can we 
solve the issue by adding a specific checkpoint to address that particular 

GR: I still think that it's a two-part question w.r.t. accesskey: - The 
specified key binding is not the only piece: the UA has to decide how to 
support if. UA
needs to tell user how to invoke it. I don't think we should have a 
separate checkpoint.

IJ: Where's the burden on the UA?

DB: Not a question of burden but of priority.

AG: Dick is saying it's not P1. Gregory is saying not P3. I would split it 
as follows: If you do it, you must document it. There's also a question 
about the priority
of implementing.

KB: I can see some benefit to knowing what's author-specified as opposed to 

GR: Please review my proposed techniques that I sent to the list (27 October).

1) Make 10.1 for UA-supplied configuration P1.
2) Add a checkpoint that's P2 for author-specified configuration.
3) Considering merging them. Should the priority of making author-specified 
configuration be as high as user-agent supplied?

8) Going to last call.

a) Resolved: Go to last call 5 November - 1 December with open issues noted.

Two abstentions on decision to go to last call:
Gregory, Mark.

GR: I'm concerned that we've had enough time to work out issues.

JG: I'm only aware of two issues that are still open.

DB: I'm not satisfied that I've gotten enough input on this document from 
the IE group. That's a problem of the MS Access group.

IJ: Note that Rich said ok to last call with current Techniques Document.

IJ: Note that new level of document maturity (Candidate Recommendation) is 
likely to be adopted by the Advisory Committee during our last call.

Action Ian: Incorporate changes from this call.

Action Ian: Continue to add techniques.

b) Resolved: Structure of the 29 October Techniques Document ok.

9) Face To Face meeting

Action Ian: Make meeting page available.

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Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Chair, W3C WAI User Agent Working Group
Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
College of Applied Life Studies
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL  61820

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248

E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu

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Received on Wednesday, 3 November 1999 16:12:44 UTC

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