Re: need examples of where the Visual order makes sense, but screen reader order does not

Sorry, if this is a duplicate send.

Hi Bryan,

Sounds like an interesting article.

I have been working on this visual-layout-to-screen-reader-order translation challenge in PhET Simulations for 9 years. 

You should find some interesting order choices in our 32 sims with Alternative Input <https://phet.colorado.edu/en/simulations/filter?type=html&a11yFeatures=alternative-input>. Eleven of these sims are fully described and accessible using screen reader software with our flag ship Interactive Description feature <https://phet.colorado.edu/en/simulations/filter?type=html&a11yFeatures=interactive-description>. I would start with those eleven. 

We also have five sims with a customizable web-based text-to-speech feature we call Voicing <https://phet.colorado.edu/en/simulations/filter?type=html&a11yFeatures=voicing> which makes the descriptions accessible to a wider audience - people who do not typically use screen reader software.

Our sims are made accessible using our own SceneryStack code libraries <https://scenerystack.github.io/community/> which include an accessible Parallel Dom architecture (a semantically rich HTML webpage with dynamic content) allowing us to design and implement accessible interactions and robustly described sim experiences.

If you would like to know more about SceneryStack or our design approach, please don’t hesitate to reach out off list. We are actively engaged in building a community of people interested in designing and implementing accessible and inclusive interactive simulations and other interactive experiences.
~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~
Taliesin L. Smith
talilief@gmail.com 
taliesin.smith@colorado.edu 

Inclusive Design Research Specialist
PhET Interactive Simulations
http://phet.colorado.edu/
Department of Physics
University of Colorado, Boulder






> On Oct 9, 2024, at 09:52, bryan rasmussen <rasmussen.bryan@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Perhaps another explanation - these cases would be any time you deemed it acceptable to have a visually hidden description of what the next item in the reading order was for, that for a sighted person would be understood by the visual context of where that item was at.
> 
> ugh, I am unfortunately not doing the best at thinking right now, so things might be overly verbose or non-concise. apologies.
> 
> Mvh,
> Bryan Rasmussen
> 
> On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 12:21 PM bryan rasmussen <rasmussen.bryan@gmail.com <mailto:rasmussen.bryan@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Hey,
>> 
>> I'm writing an article about some new ideas to handle translating between visual media to aural media - screen readers - and I need some examples of where the visual order of a layout makes sense, but the screen reader order would not make sense - for example components where the action comes before some necessary information about what the action does.
>> 
>> I've seen thousands of these over the years of course, but darn it I never kept a document showing them all. I'm hoping somewhere here on the list has some examples.
>> 
>> Obviously these are not ones where the visual order would be improved by moving it into an order where the reading order makes sense, but ones in which the visual information presented lower in reading order makes sense for the action you are undertaking.
>> 
>> Hopefully someone can help me with examples of this, because this article is really killing me with the time sink it has turned into.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Bryan Rasmussen