RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: question regarding printed PDF documents

Good afternoon again.
am thankful my perspective is helpful.
Will  share a couple more here.
First that you have someone on your team that believes that wcag has to do 
with paper is concerning..but not surprising.  same for the ADA stance.
  Even though clearly the W in wcag stands for Web, both the  wcag and Ada 
suffer  from very very bad public relations.
not enough  objective general  coverage of what they are, what they do, 
what they  mean..much as with the population of humans living with 
disabilities all together.
this is deeply unfortunate, well meaning people here a phrase or series of 
letters, and project from a place of limited information.
Have said this before, and say it again here.
Wcag and the w3c need a  broadly distributed documentary about their work, 
their history, the living breathing nature of what you create.
Something broadcast by  PBS and its equal in other countries.
I would personally take on this project three weeks ago last Tuesday, even 
have the professional capacity for the work..just need the funding, for 
which  I have the nonprofit sector  capacity as well.
Fixing this is important,  as your situation illustrates.  many people 
mean well,  but create confusion of this kind.
Some of those people are in situations where their confusion leads to 
limits for those seeking access..well intended ignorance is a dangerous 
thing.
Which brings me to a more specific answer for you.
At the end of the day your goal is dignity and respect for what the 
disability experience means for the specific individual redefining that 
experience for themselves.
First way to manage this?
providing choices, and stating those choices  clearly so the individual 
knows how many ways they can manage a task.  Does not hurt if you can 
allow them to share their needs.  Not as feedback, but as a way to add 
extra solutions.
one solution to this problem I have encountered..to my joy if I am honest, 
works  in this way.
YOu include a phrase like this
  My name is Karen D. Lewellen
The above line constitutes my signature for the purpose of this form.
In some cases I have simply come across, providing a check in this box, 
done with the enter key or space bar, constitutes your signing this 
form..those sorts of things.
Inclusion is never about most people, if that resonates.
Instead, speaking personally, inclusion at its best provides enough 
options so that everyone can fill their plate with what they enjoy without 
having to discuss what they do not like.
Does that make sense?
Would adding an option  to provide a signature statement or a check box 
work  for your infrastructure?
With appreciation,
Karen Lewellen



On Tue, 16 Jan 2024, Deborah Dinzes wrote:

> Thank you for your reply. It is helpful to spell out the many challenges associated with printed PDF forms.
>
> Our solution has been to provide an ADA compliant electronic method of completing, signing, and submitting forms, via DocuSign.
>
> The question is, especially given the difficulty of printing, signing, and sending a paper form, is it necessary or even possible to make this approach ADA compliant? The question was raised by someone on the ADA Compliance team that the printed forms had to be printed and signed and that is not compliant with WCAG rules. I couldn't find any WCAG rules around this, as it's my understanding that this applies to digital/website experiences, and I wanted to confirm this understanding with this community.
>
> Most of our members prefer the electronic method of completing and signing forms, regardless of disability. It's faster, safer, and cheaper than printing and sending a document. Some people, however, prefer printing forms, so we provide this method as well. We are attempting to make this experience ADA compliant by conforming to WCAG rules for PDF forms. The problem, as you note, is in signing them. Legal won't accept a PDF signature device because it's not verifiable, but this means people are stuck with the barriers you outline.
>
> If there's no WCAG or ADA requirement to make the print PDF experience itself compliant when we provide an alternative compliant method of completing a task digitally, which doesn't require any software other than a web browser, then it sounds like we have met the requirements.
>
> I was being told there was a WCAG requirement to make the print form compliant, but as you note, there are many obstacles with print forms for people with disabilities, not just the challenge of physically signing a document. It seems the best way to achieve parity is by providing a compliant alternative.
>
> If you have time, I would appreciate your thoughts on this approach.
>
> Thank you very much,
> Deborah
>
>
>
> Deborah Dinzes
> Sr Technical Writer, Knowledge Management
> Offsite |  m (425) 443-9524
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net>
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2024 3:35 PM
> To: Deborah Dinzes <Deborah.Dinzes@becu.org>
> Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: question regarding printed PDF documents
>
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>
> Hi Deborah,
> Thank you for the opportunity your question presents.
> Speaking personally, it creates a fine moment to underscore a few critical factors.
> First, as many remind us often wcag are guidelines and standards, the laws which  include not only the ada, but human rights laws in jurisdictions include  elements that, would not likely? be incorporated in standards if that resonates.
> I have no idea what state you are operating in, or if your organization falls  under federal mandate only.
> Still, I invite you to remember the role equality, the ability to access goods & services equal to others plays in those laws.
> Let's therefore explore all the barriers your process might present to any number  of populations living with a disability experience.
> to your mind it is the simple process of printing signing and returning this file.
> That requires a computer that can be controlled, by voice if paraplegic, by programs that modify presentation if experiencing a learning or reading related challenge.  That computer must likewise have access to adobe software  to print your file.  Recently adobe has made changes to their software, many older editions no longer work.
> Next there must be a printer, that can produce a legally acceptable copy of this form, which must be read to even locate the place for a signature.
> What does that mean if again you are managing by voice, cannot hold a pen, cannot locate a signature line without the presence of someone who does not live with said comparative disability.
> You have likely  now added the need..for someone sighted, or with fully functional hands who must be found to complete this task.
> And I have not even started on the  process of getting this form back to your office.
> Speaking profoundly personally the often automatic assumption, no matter how  intended, that living with a disability experience means that you
> will have   uniformly someone else able to work around such common
> barriers is frankly reprehensible.
> Again, its a bias born of many factors and stereotypes, but in short it says.
> you live with a disability experience, therefore someone must be taking
> care   of you.
> Someone exists to read for you, sign for you or facilitate your signing, manage documents for you, use your computers in place of you etc.
> is  the issue more clear?
> Are you going to find a wcag or ada  rule that says  creating a process that  automatically requires a person living with any number of
> disabilities   to find someone not  living with the same disabilities to
> complete the task is discriminatory?  Perhaps not, but common sense and respect of human dignity says you should.
> Does that help?
> Kare
>
>
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2024, Deborah Dinzes wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> We have a question regarding printing PDF documents. We currently publish PDF forms, which people can download and fill out electronically. They then have to print the form, sign it, and send it to us (or fax it or scan and email it). They have the option of completing the form electronically in DocuSign, electronically signing the document, and submitting it electronically.
>>
>> It's been asserted that printing the form and signing it makes it inherently inaccessible to some users. Our credit union requires us to meet the WCAG 2.0 standard for our website, and as our PDFs are published there, we are making sure they are also WCAG - compliant. Is there anything in WCAG that states that printing and signing a PDF document is a violation of WCAG or ADA requirements?
>>
>> The signature area on the PDF is currently blank - no form field, just a box to sign in - because we cannot accept digital PDF signatures as they are not verified. We currently add expansion text to the "Signature" label that reads out loud: "Borrower's Signature. Please print, sign, and submit this form by email, fax, or mail."  This contact information is provided on the form.
>>
>> Thank you for your advice.
>>
>> Deborah Dinzes
>>
>>
>> <https://becu.org/>
>>
>> Deborah Dinzes
>> Sr Technical Writer, Knowledge Management Offsite | Our
>> vision<https://becu1.sharepoint.com/sites/km/SitePages/_KM-at-BECU.aspx> is a BECU community empowered with the information they need, when they need it.
>>
>>
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>>
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