Re: Placeholder attribute an accessible name?

Hi Bryan,

I was curious about that: the HTML 5 spec is quite clear, and the ARIA spec
around accessible name calculation is non-specific about that particular
attribute (the calculation is less clear than it used to be, when it
specifically listed the attributes in the recursive loop - but I still
don't see @placeholder mentioned anywhere). I do understand however that
screen readers are doing this calculation out of necessity, but is it
standard behavior, or more just due to precedent?

Thanks

JF

On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 2:05 PM Bryan Garaventa <
bryan.garaventa@levelaccess.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Just to clarify one point, the AccName algorithm will use placeholder as a
> fallback because it must, but it is never good practice to rely on this as
> a valid naming mechanism alone because it will cause other accessibility
> issues to occur.
>
>
>
> So, even though the AccName algorithm will use placeholder as a fallback,
> it is actually not an acceptable naming mechanism for people to implement
> by itself.
>
>
>
> Hopefully this helps a bit. 😊
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bryan Garaventa
>
> Principal Accessibility Architect
>
> Level Access, Inc.
>
> Bryan.Garaventa@LevelAccess.com
>
> 415.624.2709 (o)
>
> www.LevelAccess.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Juliette Alexandria <mcshanejuliette@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 19, 2022 10:07 AM
> *To:* Tom Shaw <tom-shaw@hotmail.com>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: Placeholder attribute an accessible name?
>
>
>
> *CAUTION:* This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
>
>
> Hi Tom.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately (?), yes, the placeholder will provide an accessible name
> for a component.
>
>
>
> Here are some resources, ranging from the technical documentation to
> explanations of, the Accessible Name Computation which determines such
> things.
>
>
>
> https://www.w3.org/TR/accname-1.2/
>
> https://www.levelaccess.com/how-the-w3c-text-alternative-computation-works/
>
> https://webaim.org/articles/label-name/
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Juliette Alexandria
>
> On 10/19/2022 10:02:56 AM, Tom Shaw <tom-shaw@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all.
>
>
>
> I came across this:
>
>
>
> This input element has an accessible name
> <https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2Fstandards-guidelines%2Fact%2Frules%2Fe086e5%2F%23accessible-name&data=05%7C01%7Ctom%40digitalaccessibilitycentre.org%7Cf01e35eb9f88470eaba308dab1e62faa%7C6cc99ebe9e6a4e39b564e5e9f1736548%7C1%7C0%7C638017899438185204%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ETpGHPcRdTLuW8aLz8v2h7fLDFMyLQfTxZBQbm80kVA%3D&reserved=0> because
> of its placeholder attribute.
>
> *Note*: While the placeholder attribute is sufficient to provide an accessible
> name
> <https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2Fstandards-guidelines%2Fact%2Frules%2Fe086e5%2F%23accessible-name&data=05%7C01%7Ctom%40digitalaccessibilitycentre.org%7Cf01e35eb9f88470eaba308dab1e62faa%7C6cc99ebe9e6a4e39b564e5e9f1736548%7C1%7C0%7C638017899438185204%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ETpGHPcRdTLuW8aLz8v2h7fLDFMyLQfTxZBQbm80kVA%3D&reserved=0>,
> a visible
> <https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2Fstandards-guidelines%2Fact%2Frules%2Fe086e5%2F%23visible&data=05%7C01%7Ctom%40digitalaccessibilitycentre.org%7Cf01e35eb9f88470eaba308dab1e62faa%7C6cc99ebe9e6a4e39b564e5e9f1736548%7C1%7C0%7C638017899438185204%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=z9OaCudCR2l26wWCVLcjJtRPBGck%2Fwq9QNWgEgricMM%3D&reserved=0>
>  label
> <https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FWCAG21%2F%23dfn-labels&data=05%7C01%7Ctom%40digitalaccessibilitycentre.org%7Cf01e35eb9f88470eaba308dab1e62faa%7C6cc99ebe9e6a4e39b564e5e9f1736548%7C1%7C0%7C638017899438185204%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=YuFRNeyXq59uVQ4LnmsJMy49x3yBX8RdToEA%2F6D4I3Y%3D&reserved=0> that
> does not disappear when a user starts to enter data is still required for success
> criterion 3.3.2 Labels or Instructions
> <https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FWCAG21%2F%23labels-or-instructions&data=05%7C01%7Ctom%40digitalaccessibilitycentre.org%7Cf01e35eb9f88470eaba308dab1e62faa%7C6cc99ebe9e6a4e39b564e5e9f1736548%7C1%7C0%7C638017899438185204%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ckJe0EXoeThCkscNd4nDwgtr8PbJup%2BTS2NXsYLjLYs%3D&reserved=0>
> .
>
>
>
> Source: https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/act/rules/e086e5/
>
>
>
>
>
> I was wondering if the PA can really act as the accessible name in absence
> of the label?
>
>
>
> The reason for this is because how challenging that can be for screen
> reader users using mobile devices. JAWS and NVDA for example
>
> Announce the placeholder text even when there is some text in the text
> field, however, is VO users for example make a mistake and type a letter in
> there and return back to the text field only the letter input is announced.
>
>
>
> So my question is: although not ideal, is this really an acceptable way to
> provide an accessible name?
>
>
>
> Thanks for your time!
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
*John Foliot* |
Senior Industry Specialist, Digital Accessibility |
W3C Accessibility Standards Contributor |

"I made this so long because I did not have time to make it shorter." -
Pascal "links go places, buttons do things"