Re: { Sticky Bar } 400% & Keyboard Navigation

This is a new concept. It's only been a few years since I proved that
2-dimensional scrolling was a significant barrier.

What is remarkable is how much improvement exists already.

Here is an example. I used to always use sans serif font. As it turned out
it was a size increase I needed. At 400% Paletino is just as readable as
Verdana. At 250% Verdana is more readable. Before the Reflow Criterion I
read more at 200-250% and the smaller size forced font family to be an
issue, for me.

Sticky objects are my bane today, although life is vastly imporved. I wish
I could just right click a sticky object and then have a menu with "hide
*object*" as an option. That would be heaven.

Best, Wayne

On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 11:19 AM Chris O'Brien <chrobrien@olg.ca> wrote:

> Thanks for weighing in, Wayne.
>
>
>
> “I believe that a page whose main function is to convey written content
> will fail when 30% of the page is taken by sticky objects.”
>
>
>
> I would love to see this codified in some way within the SC.
>
>
>
>
>
> Chris O’Brien
>
> Director of Accessibility
>
> Legal and Litigation
>
>
>
>
>
> OLG Internal
>
> *From:* Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 3, 2021 2:10 PM
> *To:* Chris O'Brien <chrobrien@olg.ca>
> *Cc:* Steve Green <steve.green@testpartners.co.uk>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: { Sticky Bar } 400% & Keyboard Navigation
>
>
>
> This email originated outside of OLG. Do not open attachments or click
> links unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
>
> After the Reflow criterion, the web has improved considerably, but sticky
> objects are the biggest obstacle of using web pages today. I think they
> should all be collapsable no exception. This is especially true for text
> heavy pages.
>
>
>
> If the page presents textual content like Stack Overflow or the W3C, then
> obstruction is significant. At 400% you get at most 15 words per page. If
> you are considering a page that exists to communicate information, then a
> 30%  loss means that you reduce essential content to less than 10 words.
> 50% and you have reduced essential content to less than 8 words per page.
> That is more than a little difficult.
>
>
>
> In well constructed pages like Stack Overflow and W3C pages these issues
> are easy to fix, but less professional sites make removal very difficult.
>
>
>
> I think the problem is that these pages fail to operate in landscape mode.
> They assume that low horizontal size means portrait mode and they have
> plenty of room for a large sticky element.
>
>
>
> In any case, users should have a way to make sticky elements go away
> without having to hack the page.
>
>
>
> I believe that a page whose main function is to convey written content
> will fail when 30% of the page is taken by sticky objects.
>
>
>
> When more than that is taken then the reader must plow through an article
> 2 lines at a time where each line holds between 3 and 4 words. Nothing is
> as bad as horizontal scrolling, but 2 lines per page is very disruptive. If
> I can't hack a page like that, I just don't read it.
>
> Best Wayne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 11:56 AM Chris O'Brien <chrobrien@olg.ca> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, what we test is not always decided upon one group
> unilaterally. Once again. I don't disagree with anything you've said, but
> it's not always that easy to simply force changes in methodology broadly.
>
> Chris O'Brien
> Director of Accessibility
> Legal and Litigation
>
>
> OLG Internal
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Green <steve.green@testpartners.co.uk>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 2, 2021 2:46 PM
> To: Chris O'Brien <chrobrien@olg.ca>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: RE: { Sticky Bar } 400% & Keyboard Navigation
>
> This email originated outside of OLG. Do not open attachments or click
> links unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
>
> It's important to keep things in perspective and choose the battles you
> can win. Even if you managed to force through your viewpoint on this issue,
> it only takes you a little way beyond strict level AA conformance. But you
> still won't meet almost any of the level AAA success criteria. And then
> there are all the accessibility issues that are not even addressed by WCAG
> at all.
>
> Getting your own way on this issue isn't the difference between your
> website being 99% or 100% accessible. There will still be lots of
> accessibility barriers for some people. It's just that you have chosen to
> limit your testing to a level that doesn't reveal them. If you tested for
> level AAA conformance or did assistive technology testing or did user
> testing with disabled participants, you would find a whole load more issues.
>
> We find that evidence from user testing is a lot more persuasive than WCAG
> test results even when they say the same thing, so maybe you can use that
> approach to bolster your argument. As long as the user testing results
> actually turn out like you hope and expect.
>
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris O'Brien <chrobrien@olg.ca>
> Sent: 02 March 2021 19:33
> To: Steve Green <steve.green@testpartners.co.uk>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: RE: { Sticky Bar } 400% & Keyboard Navigation
>
> I don't disagree with either of you. It's just a hard sell in many cases
> for stakeholders only interested in compliance only. The subjectivity can
> be problematic in these cases.
>
> Chris O'Brien
> Director of Accessibility
> Legal and Litigation
> 416.224.7769
>
>
> OLG Internal
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Green <steve.green@testpartners.co.uk>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 2, 2021 2:05 PM
> To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: RE: { Sticky Bar } 400% & Keyboard Navigation
>
> This email originated outside of OLG. Do not open attachments or click
> links unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
>
> I totally agree with Patrick. To answer the question, you need to decide
> what's important to you (or whoever's decision it is).
>
> If you only care about strict WCAG conformance, then all that matters is
> whether any content is completely hidden at 400% zoom.
>
> If you care about the user experience, then you can pick your own
> percentage cut-off level. There is no "right" answer, but I usually advise
> our clients to unstick the sticky content when it reaches about 25% of the
> viewport height.
>
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>
> Sent: 02 March 2021 16:29
> To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: Re: { Sticky Bar } 400% & Keyboard Navigation
>
> On 02/03/2021 16:08, Chris O'Brien wrote:
>
> > Question regarding the above: in your opinion what is the threshold?
> > This pattern presents significant challenges during reflow, and works
> > directly against those who need this accommodation (as you know). I
> > find this one particularly frustrating because it is clearly an
> > anti-pattern yet is it relegated to advisory status.
>
> One follows from the other really: there's no easy-to-agree-on hard
> cut-off point where you can say "if it covers X% of the content, this is a
> fail, otherwise a pass", unless we make up an arbitrary number (which makes
> little sense, since it would then lack any kind of nuance ... what if
> something only covers a very tiny amount of content, but THAT particular
> bit of content is actually really (subjectively) important to the user?
>
> Because it's not a simple binary value that can be agreed on, it's much
> tougher to make it a hard fail condition. Arguably, when things like this
> have been decided in the past (say, the cut-off for what is good vs bad
> color contrast), there's always edge cases where failing/passing just seems
> very arbitrary...
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
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