RE: Grid examples for layout.

Hello,


I was not aware of the issue you outlined with the application role with Jaws. I will have to do some investigation myself.

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Sean Murphy
SR ENGINEER.SOFTWARE ENGINEERING
seanmmur@cisco.com<mailto:seanmmur@cisco.com>
Tel: +61 2 8446 7751










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From: Taliesin Smith <talilief@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, 23 November 2018 2:26 AM
To: Sean Murphy (seanmmur) <seanmmur@cisco.com>
Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Subject: Re: Grid examples for layout.

Hi Sean,
My comment is not directly related to grids, but rather to role application.

In our work on 4-way draggable objects in interactive science simulations, we have found that the JAWS screen reader does not release the Arrow keys to the web application even when we use role application on the interactive draggable object.

We opted to use a set of letter keys as an alternative to the Arrow keys because JAWS just doesn't seem to ever release the Arrow keys to the web application for anything. Our lead developer, Jesse Greenberg, suggested the letter keys W,A,S and D for Up, Left, Down and Right as they are common to gamers. In usability testing, we get questions like, "why these keys?", but screen reader users, JAWS users in particular, learn them easily after a few key presses.

Also in early work on this problem, I found that the JAWS pass-through command (insert F3 maybe?) is not well known my general screen reader users and even when explained to them, the pass-through command is not a good alternative. There doesn’t seem to be a way to lock-on the pass-though command, so a user has to use the pass-through every time they want to use an arrow key. This is difficult to remember and tedious to do. Relying on the pass-through command is not a good idea in my opinion.

NVDA, VoiceOver and even ChromeVox release the Arrows when using role application. It would be very useful if JAWS did, too.

The wording in the specification has become progressively stronger, but I still think it could be made stronger, so non-compliance could be clearly categorized as a bug rather than a choice.

Here’s a quote about role application from the ARIA 1.1 specification,
“When there is a need to create an element with an interaction model that is not supported by any of the WAI-ARIA widget roles, authors MAY give that element role application. And, when a user navigates into an element with role application, assistive technologies<https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#dfn-assistive-technology> that intercept standard input events SHOULD switch to a mode that passes most or all standard input events through to the web application.”

I think “passes most or all standard input events” should just be “passes all input events”.

Regarding the grid issue, you could try using a set of alternative keys like we did, and providing that instructions that WASD keys are an alternative close to where a screen reader would find the actual grid.

For an example of a draggable object, a balloon, with this alternative, please see the PhET Interactive Simulation, Balloons and Static Electricity<https://phet.colorado.edu/sims/html/balloons-and-static-electricity/latest/balloons-and-static-electricity_en.html>.

We haven’t technically done a grid interaction yet, but have experimented with navigating a grid like structure in one of our simulations called Area Model. In that sim we use 2 sliders, one vertical and one horizontal. Our simulation might be a special case, but that might also be an option for you.

Taliesin

~.~.~
Taliesin.Smith@colorado.edu<mailto:Taliesin.Smith@colorado.edu>
Inclusive Design Researcher
PhET Interactive Simulations
https://phet.colorado.edu/en/accessibility

Physics Department
University of Colorado, Boulder



On Nov 15, 2018, at 4:03 AM, Sean Murphy (seanmmur) <seanmmur@cisco.com<mailto:seanmmur@cisco.com>> wrote:

All,

The example at https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/examples/grid/LayoutGrids.htmllworks for a keyboard user but not for a screen reader user. The question I have. To make the examples work correctly. I assume application mode needs to be present in order to make the examples work with a windows screen readers due to them intercepting the arrow keys.


Is there any other way to make this work via code?

I know the screen reader user can use the pass-through command to make it work.

<image001.png>




Sean Murphy
SR ENGINEER.SOFTWARE ENGINEERING
seanmmur@cisco.com<mailto:seanmmur@cisco.com>
Tel: +61 2 8446 7751










Cisco Systems, Inc.
The Forum 201 Pacific Highway
ST LEONARDS
2065
Australia
cisco.com<http://cisco.com/>



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