- From: Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com>
- Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 13:59:13 -0700
- To: "Patrick H. Lauke" <redux@splintered.co.uk>
- Cc: W3C WAI ig <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAJeQ8SBO61462M-Cbb7QMvaBF+J-Lg+Sr_JVO2ce+jnPbEn_Jw@mail.gmail.com>
Nothing actionable today. That's why I am on the IG. I will formulate something actionable soon. I am gathering up ideas. Best Wayne On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:40 AM Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk> wrote: > Is there anything actually actionable you're hoping to get from this > discussion? It's interesting, but I'm missing the context, or a concrete > "and for this reason I think we should do X". > > P > > > On 19/07/2018 18:19, Wayne Dick wrote: > > I will now focus on users with low vision. It is a good example because > > the scope is simpler than cognitive disabilities, but the solution space > > is similar. > > > > The current model of AT does not work for people who have low vision and > > cognitive disabilities. We need a personalized user interface. The > > access we need is like the access given by stylesheets when they work. > > We need selector level personalization. > > > > It is very clear that this cannot be provided by an AT that runs outside > > of the browser. That would be an extreme breach of security. Right now > > CSS or browser extensions are the only way to achieve this result. There > > are difficulties with both of these, but for now that is all there is. > > > > Ultimately there needs to be a way to pass style preferences to browsers > > in a way that uses can get their visual style changes. Until then, CSS > > and extensions are it. > > > > Don't discount a tool that serves subject matter experts with > > disabilities. We do need to work. Ordinary users with low vision cannot > > write CSS. Most people who are blind don't write screen readers but they > > need them. (The NVDA staff is a cool exception) > > > > The bottom line is that CSS is one of the only languages that can safely > > mitigate the accessibility needs of the small group people with low > > vision who are IT professionals. It keeps many us working. > > > > It is extremely scary to live in a world where a basic method of > > accommodation can be taken away without notice, because nobody > > understands the extreme value of these tool to our lives. CSS is one. > > Configurable UI tools are another. > > > > Jon's comment on Windows 10 really illustrates the problem. For Jon the > > change was good. For me it made my 13 inch laptop impractical to use. > > Personalization is really necessary, but mainstream users think of it as > > a nice feature, not a necessity. That is why people with fully sight and > > no print disability can talk so casually about using CSS as an AT. CSS > > is not ideal, but for many it's infinitely better than nothing, or > > screen magnification. > > > > User stylesheets written to modify visual access are Assistive > > Technology. "hardware and/or software that acts as auser agent > > <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#useragentdef>, or along with a > mainstream > > user agent, to provide functionality to meet the requirements of users > > with disabilities that go beyond those offered by mainstream user > > agents" WCAG 2.0 > > > > Best Wayne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 5:28 PM J. Albert Bowden > > <jalbertbowden@gmail.com <mailto:jalbertbowden@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > "I think a major issue with user stylesheets is that there are no > stable > > CSS-APIs that you could work against." > > > > selectors are about as stable as they come and incredibly effective. > > a generic stylesheet may not beat specificity 100% of the time, but > > that shouldn't discount it, by any means. > > moreover, any style sheet added to the document is going to have to > > be scripted in, and even more likely in javascript. > > so since we are already using javascript, lets just find the styles > > that are not winning the specificity wars and then rewrite the style > > at a higher specificity. > > > > we can also use javascript to address frailty/brittleness in > > selectivity; offer a nav/modal that appears on activation. read the > > dom, present page elements in nav/modal with toggles/options, etc. > > there are already a ton of bookmarklets that do most of this, pieces > > of this, etc. > > > > i actually think bookmarklets are more ideal here for > > cross-browse/rplatforms, most particularly in terms of maintenance; > > however, then i think it becomes an issue of user adoption. not many > > people know about bookmarklets. > > > > maybe i'm missing something entirely? i am certainly not an a11y > expert. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 7:01 PM, Chaals Nevile <chaals@yandex.ru > > <mailto:chaals@yandex.ru>> wrote: > > > > On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:40:11 +0200, Tobias Bengfort > > <tobias.bengfort@posteo.de <mailto:tobias.bengfort@posteo.de>> > > wrote: > > > > I think a major issue with user stylesheets is that there > > are no stable > > CSS-APIs that you could work against. A user-stylesheet is > > basically a > > monkey-patch that will break on a regular basis. > > > > In order to get this working reliably we would have to > > convince authors > > to trat their CSS as a public interface and announce > > breaking changes > > early on. I am not sure this reasonable. > > > > > > We would. But in a world of CSS preprocessors and so on, it is > > possibly easier than it might seem. > > > > cheers > > > > tobias > > > > > > On 18/07/18 01:50, Wayne Dick wrote: > > > > There are lots of people who claim to be accessibility > > experts who > > disregard the value of user stylesheets as a significant > > technology to > > mitigate problems of visual interface. Actually they > > work quite well. > > > > This technology is used primarily be people who are left > > out of the > > mainstream ATs. They are a way to change colors, ensure > > a personalized > > contrast ration, control column width and many other > things. > > > > I use Safari because the browser will host user > > stylesheets. It is too bad > > that other browsers decided to stop supporting this > > important assistive > > technology. > > > > I think the AG should at least recognize that this is a > > form of assistive > > technology that is available in a technology landscape > > that offers almost > > nothing useful for most people with low vision and > > cognitive disabilities. > > > > For those who want to tell me how wonderful screen > > magnifiers are if I just > > used them correctly, don't bother. I probably know how > > to use them better > > than you. For my needs, screen magnification scores zero. > > > > Wayne Dick > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Chaals: Charles (McCathie) Nevile find more at > https://yandex.com > > Using Opera's long-abandoned mail client: > http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > Is there really still nothing better? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > J. Albert Bowden II > > > > albert@bowdenweb.com <mailto:albert@bowdenweb.com> > > jalbertbowden@gmail.com <mailto:jalbertbowden@gmail.com> > > https://bowdenweb.com/ <http://bowdenweb.com/> > > > > > -- > Patrick H. Lauke > > www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke > http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com > twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke > >
Received on Thursday, 19 July 2018 21:00:18 UTC