- From: Denis Boudreau <dboudreau01@gmail.com>
- Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 10:12:41 -0500
- To: Claudio Luis Vera <claudio@simple-theory.com>
- Cc: Glenda Sims <glenda.sims@deque.com>, WAI Interest Group <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CABvOyGB46No6fzxpcNfAun2PPR3WvjXt2s-iAYmfU3Jt-7RKXA@mail.gmail.com>
Oh there. Oh well. Patrick beat me to it. ;p /Denis -- Denis Boudreau » dboudreau01@gmail.com » 514-730-9168 On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 10:11 AM, Denis Boudreau <dboudreau01@gmail.com> wrote: > Interesting, but it painfully reminds me of the whole document outline > algorithm that floated around for about 6 or 7 years with HTML5, until it > was dropped 2-3 years ago due to blatant lack of user agent support.: > http://html5doctor.com/computer-says-no-to-html5-document-outline/. > > > /Denis > > > -- > Denis Boudreau > » dboudreau01@gmail.com > » 514-730-9168 <(514)%20730-9168> > > On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 9:55 AM, Claudio Luis Vera < > claudio@simple-theory.com> wrote: > >> Right on, Glenda! That would be one way to have the header level set >> itself automatically, separate from typography. >> >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 9:51 AM, Glenda Sims <glenda.sims@deque.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Crazy idea o' the week. This problem of heading structure never happens >>> to us in ordered lists..because we let the browsers render the list >>> numbers. Wouldn't it be super cool if we could have a similar construct in >>> html for headings. >>> >>> I've only had one cup o' coffee....so this may not be the best idea I >>> ever had... >>> >>> Example of dynamic heading structure >>> <oh> Glenda's make believe ordered headings >>> <hi> Glenda's make believe heading item </hi> >>> <oh> >>> <hi> Another make believe heading item </hi> >>> <!--#include file="includewithheading.html" --> >>> <hi>The last heading in this example</hi> >>> <!-- end of include --> >>> </oh> >>> </oh> >>> >>> And this would render as if I had coded it the "old fashioned way": >>> >>> <h1>Glenda's make believe heading item</h1> >>> <h2>Another make believe heading item<h2> >>> <h2>The last heading in this example</h2> >>> >>> Going to get a second cup o' coffee now... >>> Goodwitch >>> >>> glenda sims | team a11y lead | deque.com | 512.963.3773 >>> <(512)%20963-3773> >>> *web for everyone. web on everything.* - w3 goals >>> >>> [image: IAAP International Association of Accessibility Professionals: >>> Certified Professional in Accessibility Core Competencies (CPACC)] >>> <http://www.accessibilityassociation.org/certification> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 8:22 AM, Claudio Luis Vera < >>> claudio@simple-theory.com> wrote: >>> >>>> There's a core UX problem with all document software that's leading to >>>> this header issue. When authors create content in a program like Word, >>>> they're largely selecting headers to set up typographical fenceposts in >>>> their documents. For someone who has no knowledge of accessibility, a >>>> choice of header has everything to do with font size, color, boldness, and >>>> paragraph spacing. They're also making these choices based on what they >>>> feel is the appropriate contrast and emphasis with the underlying text -- >>>> much as a person speaking would modulate the volume of their voice. As a >>>> visual designer, I myself have skipped header levels for years before >>>> becoming aware of their importance to users of screen readers. >>>> >>>> The problem lies in that authoring tools by default have a 1:1 match >>>> between the typographic style and a single header level. To make an >>>> oversize h3 look like an h5, well, you have to use an h5 and skip >>>> header levels. >>>> A more conscious or experienced user might create a template with >>>> additional h3 styles that look like an h4 or h5, and give them names like >>>> Header 3 Large, Header 3 Medium, and Header 3 Small. >>>> >>>> A better approach may be to separate the semantics of the header >>>> structure from type choices by having the user flag something as a header, >>>> then decide where it is to be nested in an outline panel -- and then choose >>>> font sizes separately. This would prevent the authors from having headers >>>> that are orphaned from their parents. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 2:23 PM, David Best <davebest@cogeco.ca> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This, I believe, illustrates the fine line between WCAG criteria and >>>>> usability preferences. Technically, I do not think it is a 1.3.1 violation, >>>>> but it may create user confusion, as the screen reader question would be >>>>> "what am I missing?". This may occur on dynamic pages, and may not >>>>> necessarily be under the control of the web page if third party widgets are >>>>> used. So, it is really a question of good design and branding. >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Phill Jenkins [mailto:pjenkins@us.ibm.com] >>>>> *Sent:* March 1, 2018 01:30 PM >>>>> *To:* Rakesh Paladugula >>>>> *Cc:* Ramakrishnan Subramanian; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org >>>>> *Subject:* Re: Having h5 after h2 is a violation as per 1.3.1 info & >>>>> relationships. - was: WCAG violations or accessibility enhancements >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Why is >>>>> Having h5 after h2 >>>>> a violation of 1.3.1? >>>>> *1.3.1* >>>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#content-structure-separation-programmatic>* Info >>>>> and Relationships:* Information, structure >>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/content-structure-separation-programmatic.html#structuredef>, >>>>> and relationships >>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/content-structure-separation-programmatic.html#relationshipsdef> conveyed >>>>> through presentation >>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/content-structure-separation-programmatic.html#presentationdef>can >>>>> be programmatically determined >>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/content-structure-separation-programmatic.html#programmaticallydetermineddef> or >>>>> are available in text. (Level A) >>>>> >>>>> 1.3.1 doesn't require perfect nesting order - just that it can be >>>>> programmatically determined. >>>>> >>>>> There are plently of examples of news type pages that may have a bold >>>>> looking headline heading tagged as an <h2> followed in the reading order by >>>>> a very small heading, such as "Other Author Articles" tagged as an H5. >>>>> What would be wrong with that per the Success Criteria? >>>>> >>>>> The Understanding 1.3.3 >>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/content-structure-separation-programmatic.html> >>>>> says: "The intent of this Success Criterion is to ensure that >>>>> information and relationships that are implied by visual or auditory >>>>> formatting are preserved when the presentation format changes. For example, >>>>> the presentation format changes when the content is read by a screen reader >>>>> . . . Sighted users perceive structure and relationships through various >>>>> visual cues — headings are often in a larger, bold font separated from >>>>> paragraphs by blank lines; . . >>>>> under *Additional Techniques (Advisory) for 1.3.1* >>>>> G141: Organizing a page using headings >>>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/G141> >>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/G141which says: >>>>> "To facilitate navigation and understanding of overall document structure, >>>>> authors should use headings that are properly nested (e.g., h1 followed by >>>>> h2, h2 followed by h2 or h3, h3 followed by h3 or h4, etc.). >>>>> Tests >>>>> *Procedure* >>>>> >>>>> 2. Check that a heading for each section exists. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Expected Results* >>>>> >>>>> - Check #2 is true. >>>>> >>>>> Note that >>>>> a.) G141 is an advisory techniue, >>>>> b.) G141 does not say "shall" or "must", >>>>> c.) G141 does not fail if the heading are not nested, >>>>> d.) G141 passes if each section has a heading, >>>>> e.) advisory techniques are best practices, not examples of failures >>>>> to meet a Success Criteria, >>>>> f.) Common Failures for SC 1.3.1 does not list an example with >>>>> incorrectly nested headings . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 14-Feb-2018, at 11:41 AM, Ramakrishnan Subramanian < >>>>> ram.eict2013@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Heading order: >>>>> Whether the following heading level is considered an accessibility >>>>> violation? if yes, which criteria does this violate? >>>>> The first heading level in the page is <h2> sample text </h2> >>>>> The next heading level is <h5> sample text </h5> >>>>> ___________ >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Phill Jenkins >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 14-Feb-2018, at 11:41 AM, Ramakrishnan Subramanian < >>>>> ram.eict2013@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Members, >>>>> I hope it is appropriate to post this query here. >>>>> I kindly request you to help me understand few of the accessibility >>>>> related issues mentioned below. >>>>> Whether these are treated as accessibility enhancement which would be >>>>> helpful for the end user. Or accessibility violation. >>>>> Heading order: >>>>> Whether the following heading level is considered an accessibility >>>>> violation? if yes, which criteria does this violate? >>>>> The first heading level in the page is <h2> sample text </h2> >>>>> The next heading level is <h5> sample text </h5> >>>>> >>>>> Landmark regions: >>>>> When there are different content given inside two different aria >>>>> region, with same aria label. Under which criteria this fails? >>>>> <div role=”region” aria-label=”apple”> >>>>> Apple related content goes here >>>>> </div> >>>>> <div role=”region” aria-label=”apple”> >>>>> Bannana related content goes here >>>>> </div> >>>>> 3. Links which open in a new window: >>>>> When there is no indication for the screen reader users for the link >>>>> which opens in a new window, is that considered an accessibility >>>>> violation? If yes, which criteria does this issue violate? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>>> Ramakrishnan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> User Experience | Information Architecture | Accessibility >>>> simple-theory.com >>>> +1 954-417-4188 <(954)%20417-4188> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> User Experience | Information Architecture | Accessibility >> simple-theory.com >> +1 954-417-4188 <(954)%20417-4188> >> >> >
Received on Friday, 2 March 2018 15:13:45 UTC