- From: <accessys@smart.net>
- Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 15:12:14 -0500 (EST)
- To: (unknown charset) Phill Jenkins <pjenkins@us.ibm.com>
- cc: (unknown charset) "w3c-wai-ig@w3.org" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.60.1801291512040.18730@cygnus.smart.net>
agree Bob On Mon, 29 Jan 2018, Phill Jenkins wrote: > Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 13:26:14 -0600 > From: Phill Jenkins <pjenkins@us.ibm.com> > To: accessys@smart.net > Cc: "w3c-wai-ig@w3.org" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> > Subject: Re: Assistive Technology Detection > > but Bob, > there are so many things we do agree on though, like > 1. Web applications should be developed to accommodate assistive > technology without the web application knowing if the user is using > assistive > technology. > 2. Web application should comply with WCAG 2.0 Level A and AA Success > Criteria. > 3. Internet access should be affordable to everyone. > 4. Assistive Technology should be affordable to everyone. > ___________ > Regards, > Phill Jenkins > Check out the new system for requesting an IBM product Accessibility > Conformance Report VPAT® at able.ibm.com/request > pjenkins@us.ibm.com > Senior Engineer & Accessibility Executive > IBM Research Accessibility > linkedin.com/in/philljenkins/ > ibm.com/able > facebook.com/IBMAccessibility > twitter.com/IBMAccess > ageandability.com > > > > From: accessys@smart.net > To: Phill Jenkins <pjenkins@us.ibm.com> > Cc: Mark Weiler <mweiler@alumni.sfu.ca>, "w3c-wai-ig@w3.org" > <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> > Date: 01/29/2018 09:52 AM > Subject: Re: Assistive Technology Detection > > > > > we have disagreed (agreeably) about this for some years I doubt neither of > > us will change the others mind much. parking is more like powering down > the computer not using it. > > Bob > > > On Mon, 29 Jan 2018, Phill Jenkins wrote: > >> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 09:27:31 -0600 >> From: Phill Jenkins <pjenkins@us.ibm.com> >> To: accessys@smart.net >> Cc: Mark Weiler <mweiler@alumni.sfu.ca>, >> "w3c-wai-ig@w3.org" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> >> Subject: Re: Assistive Technology Detection >> >> come on Bob, no one, including me, is arguing for a Lexus to be required >> to drive down an ADA compliant highway. >> but to use a highway, you do have to have a car that can go the minimum >> speed, 45 mph I think, and meet all the safety standards, right? >> >> I simply said that ADA technical standards cover both the larger Van >> Accessible parking spot - and - also cover what is a smaller regular >> accessible parking spot. The ADA doesn't require the parking lot owner > to >> provide/pay for the Van, or the car, to use the accessible parking spot. >> The specs were developed to meet the common sizes (but not 100%) of >> accessible vans, If you have an accessible van the size of a small motor >> home, it may not fit. If the user needs or wants an accessible van, it > is >> not the parking lot owners responsibility to provide the van. The > parking >> lot owner only has to provide a certain number of the two different > sized >> parking spaces in their parking lot. >> >> I provided this analogy as an example of claiming technical compliance > to >> WCAG 2.0 Success Criteria. If the web site owner provides a website > that >> is supported by ARIA supported assistive technologies, then it meets the >> technical standard. >> >> If you disagree with the analogy as an example, then we can agree to >> disagree. >> ___________ >> Regards, >> Phill Jenkins >> Check out the new system for requesting an IBM product Accessibility >> Conformance Report VPAT® at able.ibm.com/request >> pjenkins@us.ibm.com >> Senior Engineer & Accessibility Executive >> IBM Research Accessibility >> linkedin.com/in/philljenkins/ >> >> >> >> >> From: accessys@smart.net >> To: Mark Weiler <mweiler@alumni.sfu.ca> >> Cc: Phill Jenkins <pjenkins@us.ibm.com>, "w3c-wai-ig@w3.org" >> <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> >> Date: 01/26/2018 01:11 PM >> Subject: Re: Assistive Technology Detection >> >> >> >> >> and phill's argument falls apart at this point. >> >> eg we have a highway and anyone with a Lexus can drive on it. so it > is >> open to anyone just go buy a Lexus. >> >> Bob >> >> >> On Fri, 26 Jan 2018, Mark Weiler wrote: >> >>> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 17:42:13 +0000 (UTC) >>> From: Mark Weiler <mweiler@alumni.sfu.ca> >>> To: Phill Jenkins <pjenkins@us.ibm.com> >>> Cc: "w3c-wai-ig@w3.org" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> >>> Subject: Re: Assistive Technology Detection >>> Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 17:42:47 +0000 >>> Resent-From: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org >>> >>> >>> My reading of the WCAG 2.0's Understanding document is the working > group >> interprets the issue of affordability within the requirement of >> 'accessibility supported'. To quote: >>> "This topic raises the question of how many or which assistive >> technologies must support a Web technology in order for that Web >> technology to be considered "accessibility supported".. ..This is a >> complex topic and one that varies both by environment and by language. >> There is a need for an external and international dialogue on this > topic. >> Some notes to help in understanding and exploring this topic are... >>> Currently assistive technology that is affordable by the general public >> is often very poor... In many cases, the cost of assistive technologies > is >> too high for users who need it... [emphasis added] >>> The Working Group, therefore, limited itself to defining what >> constituted support and defers the judgment of how much, how many, or >> which AT must support a technology to the community and to entities > closer >> to each situation that set requirements for an organization, purchase, >> community, etc. >>> The Working Group encourages more discussion of this topic in the >> general forum of society since this lack of generally available yet > robust >> assistive technologies is a problem that affects users, technology >> developers and authors negatively." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Friday, January 26, 2018 12:11 PM, Phill Jenkins >> <pjenkins@us.ibm.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> | . . . Ibelieve part 2.d addresses Bob's point about poverty levels. . >> . >>> >>> hmm, not the way Iinterpret Bob's comments over the years.  For >> example, quoting 2.dTheuser agent(s) that support the technology are >> accessibility supported andare available for download or purchase in a > way >> that: >>> - does not cost a person with a disabilityany more than a person >> without a disability and >>> - is as easy to find and obtain for a personwith a disability as it > is >> for a person without disabilities. >>> doesnot address "afordability", but does address equal costs andequal >> availability.  If a $900 laptop, with the latest operating > system,browser >> and AT (such as free NVDA) is equally the same costs and > equallyavailable >> in the English language in the neighboor store  - then itis understood > to >> be "accessibility supported".  >>> >>> Bob, correct meif I'm wrong, but Bob is talking about how some users >> with disabilitiescan't afford the $900 lapttop, so they can't afford to >> upgrade to the latestARIA supported technologies for example.  The >> solution is the samecost and same availability to both the user with a >> disability and the personwithout disabilities.  And while it is equally >> expensive to both aswell, it is equally compliant (or can be) to > standards >> and equally usableto both .  >>> >>> WCAG standardsdo not and should not address affordability in my > opinion. >>  Othermechanism do and should address affordability.  And, for >> example,neither does or should ADA standards cover the affordability > ofan >> accessible van in defining the number of van accessible parking > spotsthere >> needs to be in a parking lot, it does not cover the affordabilitywhen >> considering the width and spacing of a van accessible parking spot. And >> there are considerations in the standards that are "determined"by the AT >> it self, such as the Van Accessible specs are wider, etc. thanregular > car >> accessible spots.  Similar to how now ARIA is supportedby platforms > and >> assistive technology - so it can be considered in theclaim that it is >> accessibility supported. >>>  ___________ >>> Regards, >>> Phill Jenkins >>> Check out the newsystem for requesting an IBM product Accessibility >> Conformance Report VPAT®at  able.ibm.com/request >>> pjenkins@us.ibm.com >>> SeniorEngineer & Accessibility Executive >>> IBM Research Accessibility >>> linkedin.com/in/philljenkins/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From:    MarkWeiler <mweiler@alumni.sfu.ca> >>> To:    PhillJenkins <pjenkins@us.ibm.com> >>> Cc:    DavidWoolley <forums@david-woolley.me.uk>, >> "w3c-wai-ig@w3.org"<w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> >>> Date:    01/26/201802:52 AM >>> Subject:    Re:Assistive Technology Detection >>> >>> >>> >>> Phil, (Bob) >>> >>> My reading of the WCAG2.0 documents is that "conformance claims" can >> involve statingweb technologies relied upon but these "conformance > claims" >> areoptional.  Conformance itself, however, has 5 required parts, > withpart >> 4 requiring web content to only rely on accessibly supported contentto >> meet the success criteria ("Only accessibility-supportedways of using >> technologiesare reliedupon to satisfythe success criteria.")  >>> >>>> From the referencedocument,it seem that AT's and user agents determine >> whether something is accessibilitysupported or not: "a Web content >> technology is 'accessibility supported'when users' assistive > technologies >> will work with the Web technologiesAND when the accessibility features > of >> mainstream technologies willwork with the technology" (caps and emphasis >> in the original). >>> >>> The technicaldefinition of accessibility-supportedhas two parts and I >> believe part 2.d addresses Bob's point about povertylevels, as do other >> parts in the reference document. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, January25, 2018 10:42 PM, Phill Jenkins >> <pjenkins@us.ibm.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> | howcan a site or app know >>> | what web content technologies to serve up >>> | that are accessibly supported >>> | without knowing the user agents and AT the user is using?  >>> >>> My understanding is that for a site or app to claim conformance, the >> claimanthas to know or the claim has to state which accessibility >> supported technologieswere relied upon in the conformance testing, not > in >> what the user is usingafter the conformance testing is done.  Of course >> what users actuallyuse significantly influences what are the definitive >> list of accessibilitysupported technologies.  There is no requirement > to >> "serve upthat technology" to claim conformance. >>> >>> For example, if the operating system and browser platform support >> highcontrast technology, the claim can be made that the site or app >> conforms(or still conforms) with all the WCAG Success Criteria when the >> user isrelying on those accessibility supported features in the > operating >> systemand browser platform.  The site or app conformance would fail if >> the1.3.1 Info and relationship success criteria fails because some >> labelsor headings "disappeared" when turning on the high contrast >> accessibilityfeatures supported in the OS & Browser. >>> ___________ >>> Regards, >>> Phill Jenkins >>> pjenkins@us.ibm.com >>> Senior Engineer & Accessibility Executive >>> IBM Research Accessibility >>> linkedin.com/in/philljenkins/ >>> >>> >>> >>> From:     MarkWeiler <mweiler@alumni.sfu.ca> >>> To:     DavidWoolley <forums@david-woolley.me.uk>, >> "w3c-wai-ig@w3.org"<w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> >>> Date:     01/25/201806:52 PM >>> Subject:     Re:Assistive Technology Detection >>> >>> >>> >>> Related to AT detection is how can a site or app know what web >> contenttechnologies to serve up that are accessibly supported without >> knowingthe user agents and AT the user is using?  >>> >>> Accessibility supported is a requirementfor conformance.  >> Andresearchfindingsshow differences inhow browsers and ATs are > supporting >> web content technologies. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, January 25, 2018 7:08 PM, David Woolley >> <forums@david-woolley.me.uk>wrote: >>> >>> >>> The dangers I see are: >>> >>> 1) this will reinforce the idea that the only disabled people are those >>> that use JAWs. >>> >>> 2) it will probably have a similar effect to early mobile web sites, >>> which tended to be cleaner, and easier to use that the main web site. >>> That may mean that the main web site gets more difficult to use, and > you >>> won't be able to do the equivalent of using wap instead of www. >>> >>> On 25/01/18 19:18, accessys@smart.netwrote: >>>> >>>> counter to concept of accessibility, one should not need to identify >>>> and personally I would be ,opposed to it. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > >
Received on Monday, 29 January 2018 20:13:15 UTC