W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-ig@w3.org > January to March 2017

Re: Videos - do we need both captions and transcripts?

From: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 10:49:14 -0500
To: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Cc: "Sean Murphy (seanmmur)" <seanmmur@cisco.com>, Nimisha Joshi <nimisha.joshi@northwestern.edu>, "w3c-wai-ig@w3.org" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <20170206154914.GH2476@opera.rednote.net>
Good points, Nigel. Thanks.

In the MAUR we simply followed the lead of the HTML-WG in terminology.
We invented one term, "primary media resource," to name the thing for
which alternatives were identified. Unsurprisingly I suppose, no one had
bothered to name this other than to call it "the video" or "the song."
Not helpful when talking about alternative presentations.

Another excellent example of usage confusion internationally is
describing video. Sometimes this is called audio description, because
the description is historically presented as a binary audio track sync'd
to the primary media resource. ISO's SC35 WG6 adopted this usage. We
preferred "video description" as it names what is being described, and
is expandable that way to "texted video description," or "recorded video
description," or any number of qualifying helper terms to identify how
the video is being described--through what technical mechanism.

Best,

Janina

Nigel Megitt writes:
> It's highlighted elsewhere but it's worth a reminder that this terminology
> is not consistently used globally.
> 
> In the UK and much of Europe "subtitles" are used both for text intended
> for hard of hearing and for translation purposes and "captions" are labels
> that appear burned into video, for example the name of a contributor on a
> news programme on a banner at the bottom of the screen.
> 
> For clarity I have come to use the words "caption" and "subtitle"
> interchangeably in the context of accessibility and to qualify this with
> the intended purpose e.g. "hard of hearing subtitles", "translation
> subtitles" etc.
> 
> It's okay for a W3C document like MAUR or HTML to define its own usage
> internally and reference its own terms; attempting to force these on the
> world at large is unlikely to succeed when there is so much prior usage of
> the same terms.
> 
> "Subtitles" are also mini titles that appear underneath main headings!
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Nigel
> 
> 
> On 06/02/2017, 14:40, "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net> wrote:
> 
> >Sean Murphy (seanmmur) writes:
> >> Don't forget, people use caption when the language being spoken is not
> >>their prime language, so they can follow the content.
> >>
> >
> >Actually this use case is for what's called "subtitles," which differ
> >from captions by not including information about key, nonverbal sonic
> >events.
> >
> >We spent some time during the MAUR 1.0 process exploring whether we
> >could somehow combine subtitle and caption, but that effort was
> >categorically rejected. It seems the subtitle using public would not
> >accept textual information about key sonic events, which they're assumed
> >to be able to hear perfectly well.
> >
> >Best,
> >
> >Janina
> >
> >> Sean Murphy
> >> Accessibility Software engineer
> >> seanmmur@cisco.com
> >> Tel: +61 2 8446 7751 Cisco Systems, Inc.
> >> The Forum 201 Pacific Highway
> >> ST LEONARDS
> >> 2065
> >> Australia
> >> cisco.com
> >>
> >>  Think before you print.
> >> This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the
> >>sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or
> >>disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
> >>recipient (or authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact
> >>the sender by reply email and delete all copies of this message.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Janina Sajka [mailto:janina@rednote.net]
> >> Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017 8:34 AM
> >> To: Nimisha Joshi <nimisha.joshi@northwestern.edu>
> >> Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> >> Subject: Re: Videos - do we need both captions and transcripts?
> >>
> >> In order to support as many users as possible, yes.
> >>
> >> You might also note that transcripts are sometimes referenced by
> >>persons without disabilities who want to speed read through content--or
> >>to skim the content. This use case came up during our discussions in the
> >>HTML Working Group prior to the release of HTML 5.0. Let me know if you
> >>need a reference to those minutes, and I'll dig them up for you. This
> >>use case isn't noted in the Media Accessibility User Requirements (MAUR)
> >>note simply because it's not an accessibility use case in the
> >>traditional sense.
> >>
> >> Janina
> >>
> >> Nimisha Joshi writes:
> >> > Going by this, we DO need transcripts for all audio video content,
> >>right?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > Nimisha
> >> >
> >> > From: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
> >> > Date: Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 2:41 PM
> >> > To: Nimisha Joshi <nimisha.joshi@northwestern.edu>
> >> > Cc: "w3c-wai-ig@w3.org" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> >> > Subject: Re: Videos - do we need both captions and transcripts?
> >> >
> >> > It's generally expected that people requiring captions aren't hearing
> >> > audio content, but are seing visual content.
> >> >
> >> > Therefore, transcript is specified to support those who neither see
> >> > nor
> >> > hear:
> >> >
> >> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_TR_medi
> >> > a-2Daccessibility-2Dreqs_-23transcripts&d=CwIBAw&c=yHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ue
> >> > u5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&r=8bgih609kFGNd3KTkZvS4SD8-_hY6QELODIGc63wIuE
> >> > &m=uPDIur_EoYK7Iw8mT-FYh7DSzJhX4R9KHvIkQZdqkho&s=wBzST77c7L3EZGQmvUrI3
> >> > IPpNEDHSEHVHBWou1ygaZc&e=
> >> >
> >> > Nimisha Joshi writes:
> >> > Hello All,
> >> > I have a super elementary question, what is the difference between
> >>prerecorded and synchronized video?  From what I can gather, it seems
> >>there is a level of interaction with synchronized video, like online
> >>tutorials or eLearning. Am I close?
> >> > Transcript are for prerecorded (according to this Section 508
> >>checklist item
> >>2.2<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.hhs.gov_web_
> >>section-2D508_making-2Dfiles-2Daccessible_checklist_html_index.html-3Flan
> >>guage-3Des&d=CwIBAw&c=yHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&r=8bgih
> >>609kFGNd3KTkZvS4SD8-_hY6QELODIGc63wIuE&m=uPDIur_EoYK7Iw8mT-FYh7DSzJhX4R9K
> >>HvIkQZdqkho&s=c8imw3CZmw7WrZWTSwzLD855OszQZMMg0s5Q7PGxQNw&e= >) and
> >>captions are for synchronized (checklist item 2.3).
> >> > If this is irrelevant and you advise using captions for all video
> >>content (except for a silent movie, of course) or if we need both
> >>captions and transcripts?
> >> > Thank you again for all your advice.
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > NJ
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> > Janina Sajka,   Phone: +1.443.300.2200
> >> >
> >>sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net<mailto:janina@asterisk.rednote.net>
> >> >                         Email:
> >> > janina@rednote.net<mailto:janina@rednote.net>
> >> >
> >> > Linux Foundation Fellow
> >> > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:
> >>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__a11y.org&d=CwIBAw&c=y
> >>HlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&r=8bgih609kFGNd3KTkZvS4SD8-_hY
> >>6QELODIGc63wIuE&m=uPDIur_EoYK7Iw8mT-FYh7DSzJhX4R9KHvIkQZdqkho&s=8HQ9hcZpR
> >>wD9nQJBi21gpHBcGca5qfoTucvlz42u_zg&e=
> >> >
> >> > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative
> >>(WAI)
> >> > Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures
> >>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_wai_apa&d=
> >>CwIBAw&c=yHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&r=8bgih609kFGNd3KTkZ
> >>vS4SD8-_hY6QELODIGc63wIuE&m=uPDIur_EoYK7Iw8mT-FYh7DSzJhX4R9KHvIkQZdqkho&s
> >>=JmIWN0a1mbinqjyPExhkBUO8kX31qaFrOultUBHRDUQ&e=
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Janina Sajka,        Phone:  +1.443.300.2200
> >>                      sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net
> >>              Email:  janina@rednote.net
> >>
> >> Linux Foundation Fellow
> >> Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:    http://a11y.org
> >>
> >> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> >> Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures     http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
> >>
> >>
> >
> >--
> >
> >Janina Sajka,  Phone:  +1.443.300.2200
> >                       sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net
> >               Email:  janina@rednote.net
> >
> >Linux Foundation Fellow
> >Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:      http://a11y.org
> >
> >The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> >Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures       http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------
> http://www.bbc.co.uk
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and
> may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
> If you have received it in
> error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the
> information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender
> immediately.
> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails
> sent or received.
> Further communication will signify your consent to
> this.
> -----------------------------

-- 

Janina Sajka,	Phone:	+1.443.300.2200
			sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net
		Email:	janina@rednote.net

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:	http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures	http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
Received on Monday, 6 February 2017 15:49:49 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Monday, 6 February 2017 15:49:49 UTC