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Re: example of accessible captcha?

From: Adam Powell <adam@adaminfinitum.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 12:52:28 -0500
Message-ID: <CALsiKnN0o12oKL41kLE3SvdNybHMCtP-_pDsJ_FeGChtWb+0xg@mail.gmail.com>
To: WAI Interest Group <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
The difficulties described with ReCAPTCHA hold true for me as well.

I don't have any disabilities that interfere with website usage but I use
browser settings for privacy (enable "do not track", disable 3rd party
cookies, clearing cookies, ad blockers, privacy badger, etc.).

I rarely, get through ReCAPTCHA without having to complete a visual
challenge that is often confusing (sometimes I get them wrong) and, from
what I can tell, requires a mouse/click.

Adam Powell
http://www.adaminfinitum.com


On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 10:25 AM, <accessys@smart.net> wrote:

>
> yes have run into that version and it doesn't work at all in a text based
> webbrowser.
>
> Bob
>
>
> On Fri, 3 Feb 2017, Jonathan Avila wrote:
>
> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 14:54:39 +0000
>> From: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>
>> To: "w3c-wai-ig@w3.org" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
>> Subject: RE: example of accessible captcha?
>> Resent-Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 14:55:19 +0000
>> Resent-From: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>>
>>
>> Yu just need to check the checkbox that says 'I am not a robot', and you
>>> are good to go. The  best part is that it is free to use.
>>>
>>
>> Unfortunately in practice this doesn't work for many.  I encounter
>> reCAPTCHA almost every day and most of the time checking the checkbox
>> presents me with images that I have to cipher through.  The audio
>> alternative in reCAPTCHA is so difficult to hear/understand that it's not
>> practical for many people to use either.    The instructions for the image
>> select is confusing as well.  For example, it may say select all images
>> with street signs.    It turns out you also have to select the poles the
>> signs are on in order to pass the test.  Another example required selecting
>> images with store fronts -- some of which are subjective and hard to see
>> for those who have visual impairments, contrast challenges, etc.
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ajay Sharma [mailto:ajaysharma89003@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 8:51 AM
>> To: Karen Lewellen
>> Cc: Andrew Kirkpatrick; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>> Subject: Re: example of accessible captcha?
>>
>> Well, google has come up with an innovative way by using artificial
>> intelligence and machine learning to make captcha  usable by everyone, and
>>  they  call it  Google re-captcha ,  which personaly I feel is   by far
>> the  easiest and accessible  way to differentiate between humans and bots.
>> Yu just need to check the checkbox that says 'I am not a robot', and you
>> are good to go. The  best part is that it is free to use.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ajay
>>
>> On 02-Feb-2017, at 10:48 PM, Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Andrew,
>>> These days the problem with your practical policy approach where
>>> captcha is concerned is this.
>>> If a company provides a service, like a bank account or shopping system
>>> and they suddenly add a non-inclusive captcha, then those impacted
>>> customers are barred from their accounts.
>>> This is not a situation comparative totally with the rest of the WACG.
>>> it can have swift immediate life impact for someone.
>>> That is why in this thread picking on this success criteria warranted my
>>> question.
>>> I do agree with you  about education.  still developers are far more
>>> than professionals in the field. A person creating a website for business
>>> using tools  out of the box becomes  the developer.
>>> More than conversations are needed here.  Speaking only for myself I
>>> feel the demand for such a default concept is more than high enough.
>>> People cannot demand what they do not even know exists.  Companies read
>>> about yahoo start screaming for security issues, and find themselves with
>>> an access issue that might be avoidable.   sometimes the best way to
>>> educate  comes from the tools or programs themselves.
>>> Kare
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Karen,
>>>>
>>>> Based on say your personal professional experience how likely is it
>>>>> that a small business owner creating an international e-commerce
>>>>> website that may possibly reach millions, will automatically
>>>>> understand this need on their own?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don’t think that it is high enough, perhaps not high at all. I’m not
>>>> sure that I would say that many of the WCAG 2.0 success criteria would meet
>>>> that bar, so it may not be worth picking on 1.1.1 for that concern specific
>>>> to CAPTCHA...
>>>>
>>>> The incident  leading to my starting this thread involved, not a
>>>>> small business owner, but a very very large Canadian company.
>>>>> Said company used recaptcha to create their verification,  and it
>>>>> did not even manifest in their brain cells that an alternative was
>>>>> possible, let alone required.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sure, and that is why:
>>>> 1) We are looking at requirements for a major overhaul of WCAG 2.0’s
>>>> structure and approach to guidelines
>>>> 2) People need to either educate themselves or hire experts - this is
>>>> commonplace for compliance with many regulations where specific domain
>>>> knowledge is needed.
>>>>
>>>> Now, if there was a point  in installing recaptcha  that the user
>>>>> reached a message like this.
>>>>> "warning! failure to provide an alternative captcha other than the
>>>>> visual one  chosen may result in  human rights violations in your
>>>>> jurisdiction, or may be just unfriendly!  do you wish to proceed?"
>>>>> Then I would feel the wording of 2.0 was enough...but it is possible
>>>>> to use the program without learning about alternative captcha formats.
>>>>> Therein may be the true issue.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’m sure that google would appreciate the bug report! :) Seriously
>>>> though, reCaptcha does provide alternatives built into the CAPTCHA, so it
>>>> is possible that they satisfy the WCAG 2.0 requirements directly (I haven’t
>>>> evaluated it so I can’t say). Still, even if a captcha provides an image
>>>> and provides an audio version of the image, that wouldn’t meet all users
>>>> needs since a deaf-blind user wouldn’t see the image or hear the audio, so
>>>> other approaches are worth considering.
>>>>
>>>> In the best of all possible universes,  automatically respecting the
>>>>> diverse ways to use a computer regardless of body uniqueness would
>>>>> flow effortlessly.  We are not there yet.
>>>>> So, why is it not the default to create alternatives to visual
>>>>> captchas in programs that produce them?
>>>>> Dancing outside of the box...as usual,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’d say that it isn’t the default because the demand isn’t sufficient
>>>> yet. Everyone on this list is a lot of people, but we are a small group
>>>> relative to the population of developers in general. We need to keep
>>>> talking to people and educating them on accessibility. We will get to that
>>>> point I believe, but we aren’t there yet.
>>>>
>>>> AWK
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 1 Feb 2017, Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It bears pointing out that WCAG 2.0 allows CAPTCHA, but requires
>>>>>> accessible CAPTCHA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems that some people think that CAPTCHA is always an image-based
>>>>>> test, but that is not the case, it is any method that is used to
>>>>>> distinguish between an computer and a human.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only reason that CAPTCHA was called out in WCAG 2.0 was that it
>>>>>> would cause a failure if there was an image on a web page that didn’t have
>>>>>> an equivalent alternative, and that would defeat the purpose of the CAPTCHA
>>>>>> image. If you do use an image-based CAPTCHA WCAG 2.0 just requires that you
>>>>>> provide alternative CAPTCHA methods for accessibility purposes, which is
>>>>>> just like if you need to provide an alternative to other types of
>>>>>> inaccessible content.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> AWK
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>>>>> Group Product Manager, Standards and Accessibility Adobe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> akirkpat@adobe.com
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/awkawk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/31/17, 20:14, "Gian Wild" <gian@accessibilityoz.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might be interested in these articles:
>>>>>>> CAPTCHA: Inaccessible to Everyone:
>>>>>>> http://www.sitepoint.com/captcha-inaccessible-to-everyone/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CAPTCHA: How to do it right (ie. don't use CAPTCHA!):
>>>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140831232143-25659818-captcha-how-
>>>>>>> to-do-it-right-ie-don-t-use-captcha
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Karen Lewellen [mailto:klewellen@shellworld.net]
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 1 February 2017 11:59 AM
>>>>>>> To: Sean Murphy (seanmmur) <seanmmur@cisco.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: example of accessible captcha?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, at the risk of singing the same song again, a shared label
>>>>>>> does not a shared experience make.
>>>>>>> That you do not find an task difficult is absolutely fantastic...for
>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>> It does not mean everyone within the same well label has your tools
>>>>>>> your situations, or choices.
>>>>>>> I was frankly stunned that assurance could get away with such a
>>>>>>> clear problem. I Mean what if the person has another reading  challenge?
>>>>>>> Kicking them out because they cannot read when providing phones that
>>>>>>> have no access at all is a tad much.
>>>>>>> Kare
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Sean Murphy (seanmmur) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Interesting, point in relation to text messages. AS I have vision
>>>>>>>> loss myself, I didn't find it difficult.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As there are more and more organisations using this as part of
>>>>>>>> their security mechanism. One example that comes to mind is two step
>>>>>>>> authentication. I suspect the challenge the example you provided is related
>>>>>>>> to the assistive technology they had available on the mobile device. If the
>>>>>>>> technology doesn't permit them to read text messages easily, then the
>>>>>>>> solution will break for that group of users. Thus isn't full proof.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The other ideas promoted I need to check out. As this is really a
>>>>>>>> pain point for accessibility and disable users.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sean Murphy
>>>>>>>> Accessibility Software engineer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Karen Lewellen [mailto:klewellen@shellworld.net]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 1 February 2017 10:28 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Sean Murphy (seanmmur) <seanmmur@cisco.com>
>>>>>>>> Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: example of accessible captcha?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi sean,
>>>>>>>> I personally dislike the text message idea for two reasons.
>>>>>>>> first, you must provide your cell number, which if the site in
>>>>>>>> question becomes compromised  creates issues.
>>>>>>>> second and most important though that method assumes that both a
>>>>>>>> phone  is available, and a phone with easy to access text messaging.
>>>>>>>> I knew someone experiencing sight loss who got kicked out of the
>>>>>>>> low cost American cell phone  program because their provider called
>>>>>>>> assurance wireless  used  text messages to contact members.  The phone
>>>>>>>> provided in the program had no accessible features so...they lost their
>>>>>>>> service because they could not  read the screen.
>>>>>>>> I believe Google is behind recaptcha.  If they no longer encourage
>>>>>>>> the visual captcha, then recaptcha should not create as much.
>>>>>>>> I agree totally with you about the audio editions of the challenges
>>>>>>>> for many reasons.  those are a poor solution  in my experiences as well.
>>>>>>>> Kare
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Sean Murphy (seanmmur) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Karen,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I like the concept of sites which use text messages that appear on
>>>>>>>>> your phone. Then you enter in the number they provide as the challenge.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Audio caption solutions in my book are a negative experience
>>>>>>>>> because if you cannot understand the audio output. Then you cannot complete
>>>>>>>>> the form. As most audio challenges are distorted audio in the first place.
>>>>>>>>> I and quite a lot of others find this method of authentication very poor.
>>>>>>>>> This is of course to address the vision impairment community who cannot se
>>>>>>>>> the challenge graphic.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There was an article I read ages ago where I think google had
>>>>>>>>> developed a method of not requiring the graphical challenge at
>>>>>>>>> all and used a completely different method. I went looking for
>>>>>>>>> the article and cannot find it. :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sean Murphy
>>>>>>>>> Accessibility Software engineer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Karen Lewellen [mailto:klewellen@shellworld.net]
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 1 February 2017 6:12 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>>>>>>>>> Subject: example of accessible captcha?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Greetings all,
>>>>>>>>> I seek a site that uses a captcha which does not involve an
>>>>>>>>> image.  by which I mean one using a math problem, or some other
>>>>>>>>> interaction that differs from the letter number things often used.
>>>>>>>>> Ideas?
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Karen
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>
>
Received on Friday, 3 February 2017 17:53:27 UTC

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