- From: Sean Murphy (seanmmur) <seanmmur@cisco.com>
- Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 22:21:56 +0000
- To: "Lovely, Brian (CONT)" <Brian.Lovely@capitalone.com>, WAI Interest Group <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <b6e0d287aef948208687ebb0234b8616@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>
Happy to be corrected on this.
Jaws does perform correction for incorrect tagging of HTMl code which is a left over from the earlier days of the Internet. NVDA and Voice-over apparently do not correct bad mark-up. If the standards require a <form> and a </form> to indicate a section of the page where a form is located. NVDA and Voice-over could provide incorrect information.
If the above is correct, then this would clearly indicate the need of correct mark-up with beginning and ending tags in the area of accessibility without indicating good code practise.
Sean Murphy
Accessibility Software engineer
seanmmur@cisco.com
Tel: +61 2 8446 7751 Cisco Systems, Inc.
The Forum 201 Pacific Highway
ST LEONARDS
2065
Australia
cisco.com
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From: Lovely, Brian (CONT) [mailto:Brian.Lovely@capitalone.com]
Sent: Monday, 31 October 2016 11:46 PM
To: WAI Interest Group <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Is the <form> tag mandatory?
Just because you can use Angular make many non-semantic containers behave and look like anchors, form elements, etc. doesn’t mean we should sacrifice accessibility and semantic information.
From: David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2016 7:27 PM
To: Mohammad, Ashraf <Ashraf.Mohammad@sabre.com<mailto:Ashraf.Mohammad@sabre.com>>
Cc: alands289@gmail.com<mailto:alands289@gmail.com>; Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>; Andy Keyworth <akeyworth@tbase.com<mailto:akeyworth@tbase.com>>; WAI Interest Group <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: Is the <form> tag mandatory?
I don't know of any problems with screen readers, leaving off the form element. There is no failure of WCAG, if the screen reader can navigate to it (just press "F" in JAWS), and the label is read...
It is as we say "accessibility supported".
Cheers,
David MacDonald
CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
Tel: 613.235.4902
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On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Mohammad, Ashraf <Ashraf.Mohammad@sabre.com<mailto:Ashraf.Mohammad@sabre.com>> wrote:
Hi,
Sites and applications are being developed with Angularjs, Reactjs and other such frontend or Single page frameworks. They only load <body> tag and rest of the page/DOM is built using javascript on the browser. So, they only work with Js and CSS on.
If the <form> tag is added, then we have to add “event.preventDefault” in javascript for all buttons, if not those button’s submit the form causing these applications to fail. So I want to omit the <form> tags which I am not using and that way I don’t have to even write special javascript to handle them.
Thank you,
Ashraf
From: "alands289@gmail.com<mailto:alands289@gmail.com><mailto:alands289@gmail.com<mailto:alands289@gmail.com>>" <alands289@gmail.com<mailto:alands289@gmail.com><mailto:alands289@gmail.com<mailto:alands289@gmail.com>>>
Date: Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 12:46 PM
To: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com><mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>>, Andy Keyworth <akeyworth@tbase.com<mailto:akeyworth@tbase.com><mailto:akeyworth@tbase.com<mailto:akeyworth@tbase.com>>>, WAI Interest Group <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org><mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>>>
Cc: Mohammad Ashraf <ashraf.mohammad@sabre.com<mailto:ashraf.mohammad@sabre.com><mailto:ashraf.mohammad@sabre.com<mailto:ashraf.mohammad@sabre.com>>>
Subject: RE: Is the <form> tag mandatory?
And for 2.4.5 the Sufficient Techniques further state:
1. Using two or more of the following techniques:
o G125: Providing links to navigate to related Web pages<http://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/G125>
o G64: Providing a Table of Contents<http://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/G64>
o PDF2: Creating bookmarks in PDF documents<http://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/PDF2> (PDF)
o G63: Providing a site map<http://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/G63>
o G161: Providing a search function to help users find content<http://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/G161>
o G126: Providing a list of links to all other Web pages<http://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/G126>
o G185: Linking to all of the pages on the site from the home page<http://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/G185>
Alan
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Andrew Kirkpatrick<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 1:36 PM
To: Andy Keyworth<mailto:akeyworth@tbase.com<mailto:akeyworth@tbase.com>>; WAI Interest Group<mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>>
Cc: Mohammad, Ashraf<mailto:Ashraf.Mohammad@sabre.com<mailto:Ashraf.Mohammad@sabre.com>>
Subject: Re: Is the <form> tag mandatory?
Andy,
I would disagree that 2.4.5 applies to a form on a page since 2.4.5 reads:
Multiple Ways: More than one way is available to locate a Web page<http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/navigation-mechanisms-mult-loc.html#webpagedef> within a set of Web pages<http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/navigation-mechanisms-mult-loc.html#set-of-web-pagesdef>except where the Web Page is the result of, or a step in, a process<http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/navigation-mechanisms-mult-loc.html#processdef>. (Level AA)
You seem to be describing the need for multiple ways to navigate a single page, but 2.4.5 only applies to the location of a page within a set.
Thanks,
AWK
Andrew Kirkpatrick
Group Product Manager, Standards and Accessibility
Adobe
akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com><mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>
http://twitter.com/awkawk
From: Andy Keyworth <akeyworth@tbase.com<mailto:akeyworth@tbase.com><mailto:akeyworth@tbase.com<mailto:akeyworth@tbase.com>>>
Date: Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 13:03
To: WAI-IG <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org><mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>>>
Cc: "Mohammad, Ashraf" <Ashraf.Mohammad@sabre.com<mailto:Ashraf.Mohammad@sabre.com><mailto:Ashraf.Mohammad@sabre.com<mailto:Ashraf.Mohammad@sabre.com>>>
Subject: RE: Is the <form> tag mandatory?
Resent-From: WAI-IG <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org><mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>>>
Resent-Date: Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 13:04
In auditing websites, I’ve noticed a real impact on screen reader usability when the <form>…</form> is absent. This has been most apparent on pages where there is a prominent form in the content which wraps using the “<form>” tags, but also a search box in the page header which does not do the same. In these cases, the search box function is noticeably less easy to find and use.
I would argue this can have an impact on whether the site can claim to meet WCAG 2.0 Success Criterion 2.4.5, “Multiple Ways”.
Andy Keyworth
Online Accessibility and Product Development Specialist
Certified ADA Coordinator
T-Base Communications
Phone: 613-236-0866 | Toll free: 1-800-563-0668 x1256
www.tbase.com<http://www.tbase.com><http://www.tbase.com/>| Ogdensburg, NY | Ottawa, ON
For accessibility stories to inform & inspire, follow #tbasestories<http://tbase.com/blog-tags/t-base-stories>!
SIMPLIFYING ACCESSIBLE COMMUNICATIONS.TM<http://COMMUNICATIONS.TM>
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From: chaals@yandex-team.ru<mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru><mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru<mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru>> [mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru<mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru>]
Sent: October-27-16 12:44 PM
To: Christophe Strobbe; Steve Faulkner
Cc: WAI Interest Group
Subject: Re: Is the <form> tag mandatory?
Because you don't *need* a form tag to make it possible to fill in some input elements and send the data - assuming javascript is running properly, which is not always the case but happens most of the time.
You can't work out what is in the particular form being submitted if you don't have a form tag, but then you have to have a specialised browser extension or a particularly friendly developer who made that possible or you can't do that anyway in practice.
The point about the tags being mandatory is that if you want the DOM to record a form, you need both tags to go into the parser. Whereas for example you can leave out both the start and end tags for tbody or body and it will still create the elements…
27.10.2016, 18:37, "Christophe Strobbe" <strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de<mailto:strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de><mailto:strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de<mailto:strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de>>>:
Hi Steve,
On 27/10/2016 17:56, Steve Faulkner wrote:
On 27 October 2016 at 16:42, Christophe Strobbe <strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de<mailto:strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de><mailto:strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de<mailto:strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de>>> wrote:
According to the HTML5 specification, the both the start tag and the end
tag of the form element are mandatory:
<https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/forms.html#the-form-element>.
Hi Christophe, they are not mandatory to use, but if you do have a start tag <form> you must have an end tag </form>
How does that rhyme with the statement "Neither tag is omissible." in the HTML5.0 specification?
(You can find the same statement about elements such as label, legend, textarea, header, footer, main, aside, section, nav and figure. For example, how would you know that something is a legend when there is neither a start tag nor an end tag?)
The omission of tags follows certain rules: <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/syntax.html#optional-tags><https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/syntax.html#optional-tags>.
Best regards,
Christophe
Ashraf, use of the form element is not a requirement for accessibility. If the interaction you have designed does not need a form element to function then that is fine.
--
Regards
SteveF
Current Standards Work @W3C<http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>
--
Christophe Strobbe
Akademischer Mitarbeiter
Responsive Media Experience Research Group (REMEX)
Hochschule der Medien
Nobelstraße 10
70569 Stuttgart
Tel. +49 711 8923 2749<tel:%2B49%20711%208923%202749>
“I drink tea and I know things.”
Falsely attributed to Christophe Lannister.
--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
chaals@yandex-team.ru<mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru><mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru<mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru>> - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
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Received on Monday, 31 October 2016 22:22:33 UTC