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Re: HTML5 DL Element vs. WCAG 2.0 Success Criteria

From: Mike Elledge <melledge@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 07:30:06 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1392651006.80583.YahooMailNeo@web125505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
To: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, Jan Eric Hellbusch <hellbusch@2bweb.de>
Cc: WAI Interest Group <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Something else I wanted to mention about using the <dl> element for list mark-up, is that <dt> text (for example "Activities") is read along with the <dd> items in the list, at least by JAWS 14 with IE8 and Firefox. This provides a more complete reading of the list content.

This also explains our temptation to use the <dl> element to mark-up lists rather than <ul> or <ol>, even though it doesn't mention the number of items in the list, and is semantically questionable.


On Monday, February 17, 2014 10:18 AM, Mike Elledge <melledge@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Steve, everyone--

This has been a very helpful discussion. To address your question, JAWS doesn't appear to read lists differently using control plus the arrow versus the arrow alone.

I've often wondered why it is invalid in lists to put text between <ul> and <li> since it is read in a more helpful way by JAWS (I haven't tried it in NVDA, W-E or VoiceOver). 

When a person presses "l" (as in "list), "<ul>Activities <li>Snorkeling</li><li>Swimming</li> </ul>" is read as "list of two items, snorkeling, bullet snorkeling bullet swimming", whereas Activities isn't read when it is outside of the unordered list element, i.e., "Activities<ul><li>etc."

It still isn't ideal, since I would think that navigating to
 lists using "l" would both announce the heading ("Activities") and give the number of items in the list ("two"). But to my mind it would be clearer.

Any idea why it is invalid and whether it could be a viable approach?


On Saturday, February 15, 2014 5:05 AM, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:
hi Jan,



HTML 5.1

On 15 February 2014 09:28, Jan Eric Hellbusch <hellbusch@2bweb.de> wrote:

Hi Steve,
>> Do AT convey the semantics as some would wish them to? probably not, but
>> does not constitute a lack of 'accessibility support'.
>Announcing the number of list items is always confusing when nested lists
>are involved, because all items (instead of only the top level items) are
>counted. From a screenreader point of view DL lists are accessible, but they
>do not relay the visual information properly. The semantics are only a part
>of the problem.

unclear what you mean, what is the behaviour you get in DL's and what is the behaviour you expect?

where is it defined how the visual information should be relayed properly?


>As pointed out in a previous mail in this thread, they are not easy to
>navigate in screenreaders. Using Ctrl+arrow keyes DDs are grouped with the
>followings Dts instead of vice versa in JAWS.

it would be helpful to know what the Ctrl+arrow key is supposed to do in list avigation, I had a look in JAWS help and couldn't find it as a defined stroke combo for navigating lists (but it is defined for tables)


Received on Monday, 17 February 2014 15:33:21 UTC

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