RE: New Window inform

Just a thought...even if JAWS etc tell the user can we be sure that
people who are using braile readers and other forms of display also get
warned.  After all the SOCOG Case was taken by a gentleman who used one
of these and there are many others.

Harry Woodrow 

-----Original Message-----
From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Vosloo
Sent: Friday, 13 September 2002 9:03 PM
To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Subject: RE: New Window inform


Thanks John and Charles. I'm auditing a client's site so I have to make
suggestions. If it was my site I'd simply remove all popups. But my role
is to advise on the options available.

Both your viewpoints of sticking to the guidelines make sense. If you
say it, mean it. For me the frustration is a lack of working examples
accompanying the guidelines. No one on this list or on the WebAIM list
-- and we have world experts in the field of accessibility on these
lists -- has given a happy solution to this.

I'll rephrase a previous question to the list: do JAWS, WindowsEyez or
IBM Home Page Reader warn the user about a new
window/popup? If these do then the case for UA's doing the job is solid.
The checkpoint says that a warning must be issued -- if the UA does it
then surely the site doesn't have to.

Steve
 



> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Foliot - bytown internet 
> [mailto:foliot@bytowninternet.com] 
> Sent: 13 September 2002 02:31 PM
> To: Steve Vosloo; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: RE: New Window inform
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> If you want the "conformance" tag to have any real 
> "authority", then fudging sections of it seems inappropriate to me.
> 
> 	"All Animals are created equal, some are just more 
> equal than others..." (to paraphrase George Orwell).
> 
> W3C Priority 1, 6.3: "Ensure that pages are usable when 
> scripts, applets, or other programmatic objects are turned 
> off or not supported. If this is not possible, provide 
> equivalent information on an alternative accessible page." 
> (Most often, the launching of a pop-up window invokes a 
> JavaScript call [which often opens a window with a fixed 
> width and height].  If JavaScript is not enabled, then what?  
> Yes, you can spawn a new window using the target="_blank" 
> attribute, but this introduces it's own issues as well, 
> including resource issues, spatial disorientation for those 
> with cognitive disabilities, etc.  How many new users, not 
> aware that they have spawned a new browser, become frustrated 
> that their "Back" button isn't working?)
> 
> W3C Priority 2, 10.1: "Until user agents allow users to turn 
> off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to 
> appear and do not change the current window without informing 
> the user." (Now it can be argued that users *can* turn off 
> pop-up windows [using applications like "pop-up-cop", etc. or 
> via their preferences settings - such as in Opera], but then 
> the content is not accessible...)
> 
> My feelings on this have been aired before - if you say it, 
> means it!  Since some user agents cannot handle pop-up 
> windows, including them for ANY reason introduces possible 
> accessibility/usability problems.  Not knowing your site, or 
> your situation, I cannot say that your action cannot be 
> acheived in another way, but I can suggest you try.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> JF
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On
> > Behalf Of Steve Vosloo
> > Sent: September 13, 2002 6:20 AM
> > To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> > Subject: RE: New Window inform
> >
> >
> >
> > In summary, some user agents that create a list of links 
> for a page do 
> > not open those links in pop-up or new windows, so including the 
> > warning as part of the link would not be correct. Other user agents 
> > automatically inform the user of pop-up or new windows, so 
> including 
> > the warning as part of the link would result in a double 
> description, 
> > e.g.
> > "Link: Microsoft, opens in a new window. Link opens a new browser
> > window."
> >
> > Until a workable solution is found, it seems the best is to 
> leave it 
> > up to the user agent to inform the user of a pop-up or new window.
> >
> > If we have good motivation for an action, as above, do you 
> feel that 
> > one can still award Level-AA compliance even though this checkpoint 
> > has not been strictly adhered to?
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org 
> [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org] 
> > > On Behalf Of Lloyd G. Rasmussen
> > > Sent: 10 September 2002 09:14 PM
> > > To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> > > Subject: Re: New Window inform
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A Windows user can go into the Start, Settings, Control Panel, 
> > > Sounds applet and assign sounds  or earcons to the "open program" 
> > > and "close program" events.  Good sound effects are in the Utopia 
> > > and Robots sound schemes.  While there, assign the 
> "program error" 
> > > sound from the Robots scheme to program errors, and you 
> have a crash 
> > > which really sounds like a crash.
> > >
> > > These earcons don't warn you that a new window is about 
> to open, but 
> > > tell you when your actions or the actions of an 
> advertisement have 
> > > opened another window.  The annoying thing is that, in 
> your effort 
> > > to close various windows, you will end up closing too 
> many and end 
> > > your browsing session prematurely.
> > >
> > > I would not put a warning inside a hyperlink.  Perhaps just after 
> > > it.
> > >
> > > At 09:19 PM 9/9/02 +0100, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Does anyone know which user agents don't warn the user about a 
> > > >> new window/popup?
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >There is only one user agent these days, as far as most 
> people are 
> > > >concerned, and it doesn't.
> > > >
> > > >In practice, no mass market browser is going to warn people
> > > by default
> > > >as those authors not forced to obey Section 508 would not
> > > stand for its
> > > >getting in the way of their designs.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Braille is the solution to the digital divide.
> > > Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Staff Engineer
> > > National Library Service f/t Blind and Physically Handicapped
> > > Library of Congress    (202) 707-0535  <lras@loc.gov>
> > > <http://www.loc.gov/nls>
> > > HOME:  <lras@sprynet.com>       <http://lras.home.sprynet.com>
> > >
> >
> 

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Received on Friday, 13 September 2002 09:18:56 UTC